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2014 Honda CTX700 DCT ABS: MD Ride Review

Why is it that motorcycles have almost exclusively employed manual transmissions as other forms of personal transportation, such as automobiles and scooters, have embraced automatics so completely? Why does a bike like the CTX700, with one of the most sophisticated automatics available on two wheels, receive smirks, and even derision, from some of motorcycling’s “old guard”?

Many years ago, Honda asked me to test its Silver Wing Scooter, a large, heavy and relatively powerful 600cc two wheeler that happened to fit within the scooter category and feature an automatic transmission.  I essentially concluded that automatics don’t have to take away the fun associated with riding on two wheels, and can even provide an interesting new sensation to an old dog like myself.

Which brings us to the subject of this test, Honda’s 2013 CTX700.  This bike comes with a standard six speed transmission, but we tested the optional version with Honda’s sophisticated automatic transmission and ABS brakes.  Honda’s DCT (Dual Clutch Transmission) found in the CTX 700 is a second-generation design of a transmission technology introduced by Honda several years ago.  It features six speeds and, by incorporating two clutches, it can pre-select the next gear for quick, almost seamless changes.  Honda claims its second-generation design of this DCT results in a very light and efficient package that delivers an estimated 61 mpg.

The DCT can be used purely as an automatic in one of two modes, Drive or Sport.  In “Drive”, the transmission focuses on fuel efficiency and upshifts at low rpm levels, and downshifts less aggressively while coming to a stop or entering corners.  In “Sport” mode, the DCT hangs onto the gear as the revs rise for a more aggressive acceleration, and almost seems to read your mind as it downshifts aggressively while you attack a corner.  Finally, you can turn off the automatic nature of the transmission and shift manually up and down with paddles adjacent to the left hand grip.

We found that the DCT performed as advertised.  All of the options can be a bit confusing at first, but once you learn how to use it the DCT reacts quickly, and predictably.

A 670cc parallel-twin engine powers the CTX700, and it adequately moves Honda’s claimed curb weight of 516 pounds, although you won’t be winning many drag races against other motorcycles.  Nevertheless, in town, particularly in Sport mode, you will dispatch most cages with ease.  The bike launches aggressively off the line without any snatch or judder . . . just a quick, seamless escape.  Likewise, the bike downshifts very quickly when you ride it aggressively to squirt through holes in traffic.

The CTX700 has fairly simple, non-adjustable suspension and only a single disc brake (with two-piston caliper) in front.  Nevertheless, our bike stopped impressively short and sure, partly due to the very low center of gravity (you will feel the same sensation on some scooters).  The added weight and placement of the DCT concentrates the mass of the bike very close to the ground, largely eliminating any squat under acceleration and dive under braking.  The more even weight distribution under braking also allows the rear brake (also a disc) to do more of the work.

As you can see from the photos, the CTX700 has a very low seat height and forward-placed pegs.  The seating position is reasonably comfortable, and the seat itself is firm enough to provide support for longer rides.  The “feet forward” position does not appeal to everyone, but it somehow feels right on this particular bike.  The weight distributed by the rider seems to balance the machine well, given the already unusual weight distribution resulting from the automatic transmission placement.  The bars should be comfortably within reach for most riders, as well.

The CTX 700 has a long wheelbase, and does not turn in quickly.  It is one of the most stable bikes I have ever ridden in a straight line, however, and the relatively wide bars make turns a low effort affair, if you don’t rush things too much. You can have some fun in the corners, although ground clearance becomes an issue too quickly.

The suspension settings chosen by Honda worked pretty well for our test riders, including one close to 200 pounds, and one approximately 160 pounds.  I wouldn’t call the fork or the shock plush, but the fork soaks up big and small bumps without too much complaint.  The shock, however, does feel like it is carrying too much unsprung weight . . . similar to the feeling you would get riding a scooter that mounts part of the engine/transmission on its swingarm.

If you are in the mood to relax and simply commuting, for instance, the automatic transmission is a nice feature.  Wind protection at elevated speeds on the highway is adequate except at helmet level, where the ultra-short windscreen allows too much wind and buffeting.  Among several other accessories, Honda offers a much taller windscreen (which you can see in one of the photos), although we did not get a chance to test it..

A small storage compartment above the gas tank is a nice feature, although it is small (allowing room for your wallet, gloves, or mobile phone, but not much else).  Fuel capacity is 3.2 gallons, and we recorded 52 mpg during our test (riding the bike quite hard).  This does not provide huge range, but a more relaxed right wrist could easily net 150 miles or so between visits to the gas station.

Accessorized CTX700

Honda recognizes that the CTX700 DCT ABS offers some natural appeal to beginners.  In one of its brochures, it makes the case fairly plainly: “While clutch manipulation and shifting are second nature to experienced motorcycle riders, some potential new riders find that mastering these steps can be intimidating at first – enough to cause them to walk away from the sport before they’ve even begun.”  DCT is Honda’s answer to this problem.

But can the CTX700 DCT ABS, with it’s U.S. MSRP of $8,799, offer an attractive alternative to some experienced motorcyclists, as well?  We think it can.  Those riders who are looking for a relaxed, comfortable commuter, that can still be fun in the twisties, might be candidates, particularly if they no longer feel the need for excessive horsepower.  The CTX 700 is a bike that feels lighter due to its extremely low center of gravity, and as a result does provide plenty of entertainment together with ease of use.  These days, however, $8,799 will find many alternative, higher performance machines that will likely steer the “old guard” away from this unique motorcycle.  For additional details and specifications regarding the 2014 Honda CTX700 DCT ABS, visit Honda’s web site.

 

167 Comments

  1. Kevin says:

    Well all I am their target audience. I went through the Motorcycle safety course and rode my Stepsons Shadow a few times. I may not be the most cordinated person in the world but I did drive heavy trucks with manual transmisions in my Army days and have at least a million miles logged as a driver. Any way I cocluded that trying to get use to a clutch while trying to figure out how to keep balance as well was too much like work. I never bought a bike because I wanted something that was more relaxing/fun and less like work and required less thinking. After all I thought this was about having fun. If I wanted to be stressed out I could have just gone to work instead.

    I decided I was out till they made a automatic that looked like a Cruiser. Sorry but hanging out with Legion Riders with a scooter would be like….. well lets just say I would get more respect driving my cage. I guess I will have to swing by the Honda dealer and think about this.

    Thank you Honda for tying again. Sorry but the DNO-1 was just to weird looking and it never felt comfortable to me.

  2. Emptybee says:

    Reminds me of a canister vacuum cleaner I once owned.

  3. Wayne says:

    The negative comments about this motorcycle don’t surprise me. I long ago realized that although motorcyclists like to see themselves as free thinking individualists, when it comes to voting with their pocketbook, they buy a variation of what everybody else is buying. Nothing particularly wrong with doing that, except when something truly innovative arrives, it is often times unfairly criticized, or dismissed, and ultimately ignored in the market place by current riders (although this could be attributed to weak manufacturer support and promotion). Selling motorcycles the last 40 years has largely been a case of ‘preaching to the choir’, which is partially responsible for the lack of entry level riders. Two of my motorcycles are automatics, a Vespa 250GTV and a VFR1200DCT and I am a big fan, particularly the DCT. Other than my dirt bike (maybe add a hand clutch?), I would gladly add this technology to most all of my other machines. Addressing the needs of new and potential riders will be far more important than Bigger/Faster/Lighter/ETC, which plays every new model season like a broken record. Even new entry level machines are evaluated by the public and the press with the same old yardstick – witness the now ‘inferior’ CBR250 vs the ‘All New’ Ninja 300. Open your minds – it’s time to open this club to new members – which will help support new ‘Record-Breaking machines.

    • todd says:

      pretty much all the Billions of existing riders started on a manual motorcycle (except the few Hondamatic and Guzzi Convert beginners), I don’t see why that is no longer viable. OK, go ahead and get this as your beginner bike, then what do you get when you’ve grown out of this one? Riders will have to learn to shift eventually if they want to not be limited to a couple different bikes.

    • MGNorge says:

      Very well thought out post Wayne. I happen to agree with you, it’s too bad that many current riders seem so locked into what their idea of the “perfect” bike should be and really can’t see beyond that. There’s lots to enjoy in motorcycling. Just like thumper addicts who insist there’s nothing better, or those that feel two cylinders are what makes the best bikes. Unbending in their preference and yet we have threes, fours, fives, sixes, all with their own flavors. And that’s just the engine! Where would Baskin-Robbins be if there were only vanilla?
      We all have our preferences, does that mean I’m right and the next guy’s got it all wrong? I almost pulled the trigger on a VFR1200, the DCT intrigued me. For all the panning it received by the outspoken I understand their owners love ‘em. Isn’t that what it’s all about?
      I liked your observation between the CBR250R and Ninja 300. I looked at it as Kawasaki using the now in vogue marketing technique of bumping displacement out of established class to gain enough extra performance over the Honda (in particular) to make it stand out, but of course for extra money. Well I’ll see your 300 and raise you 500! One can play that game all day long. Which is the correct answer? Should there be a correct answer? I don’t think so. As long as the rider enjoys him/herself should be what counts.

  4. Wayne says:

    The negative comments about this motorcycle don’t surprise me. I long ago realized that although motorcyclists like to see themselves as free thinking individualists, when it comes to voting with their money, they buy what everybody else is buying. Nothing particularly wrong with doing that, except when something truly innovative arrives, it is often times unfairly criticized, or dismissed, and ultimately ignored in the market place by existing riders (although this could be attributed to weak manufacturer support and promotion). Selling motorcycles the last 40 years has largely been a case of ‘preaching to the choir’, which is partially responsible for the lack of entry level riders. Two of my motorcycles are automatics, a Vespa 250GTV and a VFR1200DCT and I am a big convert, particularly to the DCT. Other than my dirt bike, I would gladly add this technology to most all of my other machines. done ad finitum. Addressing the needs of new and potential riders will be far more important than Bigger/Faster/Lighter/ETC has and is being done. Even new entry level machines are evaluated by the public and the press with the same yardstickfind it Open your minds – it’s time for the future.

    • Jack says:

      Well put, Wayne. I’ve had a few bikes in my 50+ years. I don’t own a car anymore. I think the VFR1200DCT I now own works pretty well, although noisy in “D” mode at low speeds. I also owned the FSC600 scooter and think it’s one of the most fun and useful pieces of transportation around.

  5. Foster says:

    Those accessory panniers can’t hold much more than a friggin’ sandwich. I guess Honda wanted to keep the ugly theme intact.

  6. Mr.Mike says:

    Dear Honda:

    Please remove this monstrosity and bring back the 1976 CB360T.

    A former customer

    • fivespeed302 says:

      They did, but now it’s called the CB1100.

      • Mr.Mike says:

        The CB1100 is the CB750 resurrected – sort of. A CB360 with modern brakes and suspension and maybe a little stiffer frame would be an ideal entry/commuter bike. Somewhere along the line product planners at Honda decided that the solution to every problem was more technology and plastic. Sometimes less is more.

  7. juan says:

    Que pasa con Honda???

  8. CL77 says:

    Norm G. says:
    June 11, 2013 at 5:27 am

    Q: “And how did we get to a point where a $9,000 bike is considered a budget bike?”

    A: I tender to you this is NOT a rhetorical question, but in fact a less complex, but far more omnipresent reason exists. we just don’t want to know it…
    INFLATION.

    No, Norm…actually the biggest reason for rising Japanese bike prices is the change in the yen/$ rate. Just think what these bikes could be selling for if the $ still bought 360 yen, not just 100 yen (with the $ dipping into the 70s for several months). Honda is to be commended for bringing in this bike at this price.

  9. Provologna says:

    I like this bike. I like the new Honda F6B too.

  10. dave m says:

    I’m going to concur with others who have stated that this bike is indeed…fugly. Reminds me of their failed DN-01 from a few years ago. I don’t see this bike as having a demographic. It will sell in poor numbers, and be discontinued, and be collected by a few freaky individuals in future years who will sing it’s praises to their graves! Lol

    • Husafe570 says:

      Lol, spot on. Remember the old Katana that was kind of ugly? That thing is followed by a cult.. maybe that is what you are refering to.

      Google “Akira Bike” and it will give you some insight into the Japanese bike companies unique styling influence, Anime. Also “Kamen Rider” will give you some more clues. Pretty much the “when in doubt throw some more plastic on it” school of styling.

  11. Dave says:

    re: “But on street bikes, where you need to finely adjust the amount of thrust you get at very low speeds, in order to balance the bike in turns”

    With any auto system the engine is not rigidly connected to the primary drive. It’s just as easy to modulate the throttle (or handlebar) to achieve what you’re proposing.

    Race bikes already do have paddle shifting, the paddle is just in the same place as our conventional shifter. They up and down shift without ever touching the clutch after the start.

  12. Sean says:

    So where’s this new revolutionary Yammy?

  13. Hawk_721 says:

    I like it.

    Kind of looks like a HD FLHC made out with a scooter.

    I think many city folks or newbies will like the bike. I would like to try one. Heck I ride a Yamaha MT-01, but can appreciate something new.

    Besides, my past 3 or 4 test rides, I noticed that my first impression was wrong! Though I would love bike A: hated it. Thought I would hate bike B: loved it.

    Would like to read comments from people that have actually riden the bike. I mean I have an opinion on many things…. In time i find out I was incorrect: I don’t tell anyone. It’s a growing experience;-)

  14. Scott G. says:

    is your openning question rhetorical? automatics on motorcycles are treated skeptically by “old guard” enthusiats for the same reason they are thought of as granny trannies in cars by driving enthusiats. if you want to daydream along, put an auto on your barcalunger and stay out of the way! p.s. it is ugly

    • Dirck Edge says:

      Auto enthusiasts more often purchase DCTs these days from BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, etc.

      • Husafe570 says:

        Comparing this to a Ferrari, Prosche or BMW is a little bit of a stretch. If that sexy new MV listed a couple days ago had a DCT then that might be a more beliveable comparison.

        Those cars offer DCT because it can fire off shifts much quicker than even a perfect driver. Maybe this can too.. but something tells me the buyer of this is not trying to shave nano-seconds off his shifting.

        He is a new-to-the-sport guy/girl that is anxious to enjoy the world on two wheels, without having to learn how to shift. I say welcome!!

        Just like Toyota introducing a new Corolla does nothing to hinder my enjoyment of a Vette, I don’t see why a new ugly and slow bike would hinder my enjoyment of my bike of choice. Not my cup of tea, but there a lots of cars, movies, vegetables and sexual persuasions that I don’t care for in the world and that doesn’t stop me from enjoying driving fast, watching explosions, eating red meat and a little boy/girl hanky-panky now and then.

        I just wish Honda would treat us old-timer performance guys with some candy now and again.. I feel like I have been cast off for the new-guy in school, everything they introduce lately is for the “new” rider. I walked into my Honda dealer and almost fell into a coma.. boring. I’m not feeling any love.. and after all the Honda’s I have owned over the years!

        Throw the Superhawk 998 motor in a supermoto, put the 700cc quad motor in a 300lb XR650R/L replacement, drop 100lbs and add 30Hp and trick suspension to the 700X for a Tiger/GS beater. Something.. come on Honda you’ve wooed the new people enough now throw us long-time fans a bone!

  15. xootrx says:

    Beauty is as beauty does, ugly is as ugly does. I used to think the Versys was the ugliest thing I’d ever seen, until I bought one. Now it’s gorgeous. I wanted a street bike, mainly for touring, that I didn’t have to baby, or polish at the end of a long day. Just wipe the bugs off the windshield the next morning and hit the road. Honda hopes to sell this bike as a touring bike, and that’s how I’d like to see where it stacks up. The Versys is fast, but rarely do I take advantage of it. For me, it’s the midrange that benefits me. There are other factors involved in touring that determine how well a bike will do, and you just have to live them to make that evaluation.

    For example, how well will it do in heavy crosswinds? I deal with that all the time on the highway. What’s the range at real world touring speeds (45 mph to 70 mph) on two lane highways? How well does it do with 100 lb. of stuff? Can you pass a truck, going uphill, in top gear?

    More often than not, an average touring day will have delays: road construction, your buddy’s bike breaks down, the restaurant took too long with lunch, whatever. Maybe you pull into town and the campground is full, or you can’t find a hotel that isn’t a bed-bug breeding ground. You’re tired, hungry and just want to get settled in for the night. On days like that, you’ve either had enough, or you’re looking forward to tomorrow’s adventure. And that’s when you know if the bike is a beauty, or a beast.

    As far as handling goes, my last bike was a 750 cruiser. It was a slug, and handled like one as well. But eventually, after having gotten to know the bike well, the twisties became a non-issue, and I was able to run it through curves, fully loaded, faster, and safer, that I’d ever thought possible. I love the way Versys handles by comparison, but once again, it’s not a deal maker/breaker.

    What I’m saying here is I’d like to see the CTX700 tested as a true touring bike and see just how well, or badly it does. I’ve learned my lesson, thanks to my Versys, and I’ll never use an ugly meter to judge a bike again.

  16. graham mccullough says:

    it’s not for me. it’s ugly. if you can’t ride a bike with a manuel you should’nt be on a bike in the first place.

  17. Ed says:

    Sorry …got too long winded, make mine a standard.

    • hipsabad says:

      Not long-winded at all. Standards are the most underdeveloped style of them all. Yet they have so much potential.

  18. Ed says:

    I prefer the look the and low weight of the CB500X, I only hope that Honda loses
    the orange instrument lights and flat black non paint. I would buy an F model but amazingly the center stand is not an option! A chain drive motorcycle without a center stand is nuts. I am glad to see Honda at least trying to give us more choices in rides
    verses sport bike or cruiser. I don’t like laying down on a bike forwards or backwards.
    Make mine a

  19. Tom R says:

    Having briefly ridden a VFR1200 and Yamaha FJR1300 with auto trans, the one fly in the ointment for me was the lack clutch lever. With the big power of these bikes I really missed the extra degree of control offered by the friction zone modulation of a conventional gearbox, especially in tight turns and parking lots m

    • Tom R says:

      …sorry about typos from my over-sensitive keyboard.

      Also having ridden maxi scooters with about half or less power than the big bikes, the lack of a clutch was much lees of an issue for me. I wonder if this lightly powered 700 has similar feel?

    • Dirck Edge says:

      Tom, I know exactly what you mean. The FJR “automatic” was particularly difficult without a real clutch…juddering to a stop, and again when leaving a stop. The CTX does not have this problem, at all. The way it accelerates from a stop, in particular, is very impressive. Both quick and smooth.

  20. Jessekriner says:

    My wife owns the NC700X DCT ABS. Her first bike and comforting to her that she doesn’t need to learn to shift AND balance at the same time. It’s really nice to always have your wife asking if you want to ride the bikes today. And in defense of the DCT, in congestion and stop and go traffic, IMHO, the DCT is the way to go.

  21. Gronde says:

    Judging by the comments, we ain’t gonna be see’in too many of these on the streets of America. Perhaps they will sell in Europe?

    • Dave says:

      If the bike reaches the intended audience then it won’t be visible in the comments on this board. Like other auto shifters Honda are hoping to reach new riders, not us crusty old guys.

  22. MGNorge says:

    Well, I guess it’s time to hitch a ride on one before passing final judgement on it. That’s the way it is with most bikes anyway, no matter how beautiful or not to someone. There are a number of bikes over the years that don’t push any special buttons on looks for me and yet have a relatively large fan base.

    A few years back I had major foot surgery and it was my left foot. Being a rider for almost 50 years had me worrying about my ability to shift on my bikes, let alone walk well. It really rather scared me. The thought of giving up riding just didn’t compute. I do alright now but with more limited foot movement it’s been a chore and does not come without some thought which takes some of the joy away. Shifting becomes second nature after awhile when first starting to ride. I lost some of that. So the DCT tranny does get my attention. I do hope it finds its way into more models as it’s easy for me to see that not all might want to manually shift and for more reasons than just being new to riding.

  23. Starmag says:

    This is so bland it makes white bread seem tasty by comparison. The only explanation for the riding position and the DCT is as the step-up “bike” for the younger set I see riding around in packs riding ruckuses (rucki?). Many of them seem to love the concept of zombies, which as we all know, have no souls, making this bike a perfect fit.

    • jake says:

      Am I the only one who is made uncomfortable by the typical accusations of no soul made about bikes? Almost without exception, such a negative label is used against Japanese bikes or other bikes from Asia, never a bike from Europe or, God forbid, one from America – evidently, the heart and soul capital of the world. Isn’t the subtle implication the Western ethnocentric view that only people with soul can make corresponding bikes with soul – and of course, only Western people and their descendants, Anglo Americans, naturally, are human enough to have acceptable levels of such soul.

      Such comments remind me of the scene from “The Planet of the Apes” when the the Ape leader pries open the mouth of Mark Walberg looking for whether he has a soul or not, claiming that it is nearly impossible for a creature as lowly and filthy as a human to be blessed with such a magical ingredient as “Soul”. I guess the motorcycle equivalent of this analogy is to get out the flashlight and look down the air box or up the tail pipe, looking for whether we can see a soul in the dang two wheeled machine.

      Look, I don’t know whether this bike has soul or not, not having ridden one, but isn’t it at least possible that some degree of Western ethnocentrism and jealousy is playing a bit part in such accusations. If a European manufacturer or an American one had the technical wizardry to be the first to release this SOA tech, I doubt if it would have garnered as many negative comments as we have seen on this board so far. Imagine if a good ‘ole, red, white, blue, American company like Harley had come out with this tech first, rather than Honda? Do you think this new, groundbreaking piece of tech might have received a slightly better reception on these boards? Yep, I think so. Even if Harley had offered it as a 5K option, rather than a 1K as Honda has done, I suspect people on this board would still be hooting and hollering about what a great piece of tech it is and how it is still worth every penny.

      And the naysayers? Well, they probably would have just held their lip and just said nothing if they had nothing positive to say at all. But replace Harley with a foreign, Japanese manufacturer and, boy, how the tune changes – even when they are doing people a favor and offering this new tech for just pennies on the dollar. 1K for this tech is just to cheap. Essentially, Honda is giving groundbreaking stuff away and yet people are still griping about it. There has got to be a reason for it, one that is not rational.

      • Starmag says:

        That was some rant. No American exceptionalism or racism here, I don’t like that either. I’ve never owned a Harley and about 90% of the 30 or so bikes I’ve owned in my life have been, you guessed it, Japanese. I have serious hero worship for Soichiro Honda. His life is quite a story.I believe he made both the auto and motorcycle industries suck it up and make better products for all of us. But I will stick with my original assessment of THIS bike. Personallly I think it would be better if we could joke a bit about our opinions without the need for explanations.

  24. Wendy says:

    A nice scooter, but it lacks the capabilities of the Pacific Coast.

  25. Azi says:

    I always thought that the Suzuki Burgman maxi scooter would be a great all-round tourer if it had bigger wheels. This looks like it would fit the description, but it’s such a shame there’s no built-in storage like the Burgman, or the benefits of leg protection and multiple foot placement that the maxi scooter offers.

    I appreciate Honda’s boldness in bringing us this model range and I wish them the best in finding a market niche, but for me I’d go the maxi scooter route if I were to get something in this style.

  26. bikerrandy says:

    Obviously this bike was not made for current riders, unless the only reason they ride is to save $/time instead of driving a car. There is nothing about it that suggests going thru corners at a good clip is important, let alone real acceleration to go with that idea. Like other’s have said, this is a bike for current car drivers, not current MC riders.

  27. Yoyodyne ArtWorks says:

    So Honda offers a very sophisticated automatic transmission that also includes an extremely effective paddle shifting capability (road testers have raved about it in the NC700X). All in affordable packages that will appeal to newbie cruiser fans (CTX) and adventure bike lovers (NC700X).

    Shame on you Honda, bad Honda!

    BTW, Porsche and Ferrari seem to think paddle shifting is the new standard, but what they heck do they know about high-performance motoring, right?

    • Stratkat says:

      the Porsche is a great looking high performance design. its not the technology as much as not stimulating any excitement whatsoever!

    • iliketoeat says:

      Paddle shifting in sports cars and race cars makes sense. It might even make sense in race motorcycles. But on street bikes, where you need to finely adjust the amount of thrust you get at very low speeds, in order to balance the bike in turns, the lack of a clutch could be a disaster.

      Also, having the control of a clutch is just a lot of fun. I’d never buy a bike with paddles for that reason, and I’d never buy a car with paddles either. Or a car with an automatic transmission.

      • Andrew says:

        I don’t know. I have managed so far to ride a few scooters without falling over, despite their lack of clutch… but if you are concerned, you can always put this DCT into a manual mode. I took a test ride on Integra scooter which uses the same transmission (this model is not available in the US) and I liked it a lot. Works well enough in auto mode, and in manual mode shifting with paddles is actually fun!

        • Yoyodyne says:

          Now, now Andrew, don’t spoil things by speaking from ACTUAL EXPERIENCE! Tossing around purely speculative comments is the focus of this thread!