I think the need for a smaller dirt racing class was pretty apparent from the results of the first stage of this years motocross of nations. Ryan Villipoto outpaced the entire field on a Lites class bike. That tells me that the bigger bikes don't have any advantage over the small bixes, except for being "more exciting" (harder) to ride. I think BOTH classes should be reduced, just to keep a premier class and a starter class, but it is obvious that 450's are going the way of the 2-stroke 500's. They may be fast in a straight line, or on a certain track, but they aren't any faster than the 250's on most tracks, and the class should be changed.
I don't know why all the hand wringing about the 450s. In my opinion, to reduce power just set the noise levels at a reasonable level and enforce them. I'd still like to see a 250 and open class. None of the 2 stroke 4 stroke limitations, let the 250 2 strokes race 250 4 strokes or make the 4s race at the 144 displacement level in the tiddler class. Open class is just what it says, with a max displacement 450 or 500. I love the 4 strokes but hate the complexity, cost and noise. When it comes to racing and racers, winning and availability will determine the ultimate levels. Winning doesn't sell bikes as evidenced by Ricky and James. Honda hasn't won a championship since Ricky and no one would buy a CR250 even after his championships. Not very many Suzukis or Kaws being sold despite dominating at the pro level. It's still all Honda at the local levels
This is a superb idea for all of the reasons mentioned in the article. With the change to 4-strokes, the classes need to be adjusted to the new engine models. This isn’t any different than when the 400-500 2-stroke class was dropped in favor of the 250 2-strokes. The best riders will continue to win, and the public will be attracted to those machines. A parallel point would be the success of down sizing in Moto GP.
Adding a 350 would be easy for the manufacturers even if they elected to offer an open class 450 plus as KTM offers.
A change in displacement down to 350cc doesn't make sense. Right now with the 250 and 450 to choice from, a buyer has 2 distinct bikes with far different power and handling characteristics. The overwhelming majority of all MX bikes sold never see a track, and are used for general off-road use. The investment needed to downsize would have to cause a rise in price. This seems like an attempt to fiddle with the pro racing formula without regard to the overall impact on the riding public.
This is a non-problem. Suppose *nobody* can even half utilize the full power of 450cc motocrossers. Still there will be people like RC who can use more than anybody else can. That's why we have races to see who's the best. It's why motocross is 80% rider and 20% bike - while roadracing is almost the reverse.
If we wanted most people to be able to fully utilize the power of their bikes we could create a 50cc class. Then the winner would be determined by whichever tuner or manufacturer could get the most power out of 50cc and the rider wouldn't matter much.
As the General Manager of a motorcycle dealership who has been in the industry 20 plus years I think its a great idea. 450cc bikes are way to much for 95% of the people to handle. The entire dirt bike market has taken a huge loss in sales the last five years for a variety of reasons. Four strokes are not necessarily cleaner or quieter with today's technology and they are more expensive to purchase and maintain. I would love to see some sort of affordability return to the sport with bikes that more people can handle.
I'm from Dominican Republic, almost no one here likes the 450+ bikes, they are 2 much power for the ride in the mountains, even the prices for used ones are very low since everyone is looking for 250cc 4stroke electric start. A 450+ makes so much power that in reality you end up using few gears, and lots of power is lost on spinning.
those big bikes will end up converting to supermoto and ridden on the street. the 350cc solution is excellent since only the cylinder in most cases needs to be replaced, so the bike keeps the stroke so the bike has low end power still.
Why not? For years now I rode a KTM400exc and I loved the bike, but always wanted a 300cc four stroke. I want it in a dual sport form that I can also race enduro’s with it. I say sure the 450 is fun to ride, but in the real world its too much power.
Who cares. It's dirt bikes.
Thanks for bringing up the topic. As an Intermediate non-racer, I just don't want the over-the-top horsepower of a 450cc bike. I've always thought there was a glaring error the manufacturers were making by not providing a 350-375cc solution for non-racers. This may address that problem and sell more bikes!
I read an interview with Steve Whitelock where he stated that the _manufacturers_ want a displacement limit endind with "50" for marketing reasons. Make any sense? It certainly doesn't to me, but I am not a marketing guy.
This will not make the bikes any quieter. I flag a couple of races a year, and nothing is louder than a full race 250 four stroke at the old AMA limit of 101 dB. The FIM already limits all bikes to 96 dB, and the difference between an AMA race and an FIM race is amazing (I was lucky enough to see the MXdN this year).
However, the manufacturers have been getting around this by putting ignition advance limiters that reduce sound when the bike is in neutral. I expect to see some sort of dynamometer based sound testing in the future.
Will this make competition tighter? I really don't think so. Look at the way Ryan Villapoto ran away from the field, many on 450s, on his "little" 250.
Will it make 2 strokes competitive again? I hope so, but I expect that the Japanese manufacturers will continue to pare their offerings down. I do not believe that they want to offer multiple lines of off-road bikes, like KTM, for a number of reasons.
I look forward anxiously to see what the AMA will do for our stupidly named "SX/MX Lites" classes.
It is a good idea to get the amateurs off of the 450. However, I believe that it will cost our sport dearly. They need to keep in mind that a lot of the amateurs aren't a made of money. Amateurs make the sport and if it becomes too costly to get into the sport then the sport will pay. It was nice to buy a cheap 2 stroke and be able to repair it cheap. That is gone now so if I were manufacturers I would work on 2 stroke technology.
350 cc 4-stroke MX bikes will not reduce the cost of operation as 250 cc and 450 cc 4-strokes have approximately teh same operating costs.
250 cc 2-strokes are gone - victims of tighter emission requirements and will not be back until a 2-stroke can be made that is as emission friendly as a 4-stroke. There are some 2-stroke designes that can deliver this importantce but they are as complex if not more so than the 4-stroke engine so why bother.
As with superbikes, mere mortals cannot wring any top MX or superbike to the limit. It is commonplace in MX racing that many riders are faster on 250cc bikes than they are on 450 cc bikes. I've seen 250 cc MX bikes win races against 450 cc MX bikes myself. I've read race reports where 250 cc lap times in several national level races were competitive with the 450s.
So the question should be, will the 350 4-strokes be easier to ride as fast or faster than the 450s for mere mortals and will they be faster than the 250 4-strokes?
Personally, I think the entire MX sizes for racing should be reduced/classed as follows:
85 cc 2-stroke replacement should be limited to 125 cc 4-strokes
125 cc 2-stroke replacement should be limited to 185-200 cc 4-strokes (not 250 cc 4-strokes)
everything larger than 125 cc 2-stroke/185-200cc 4-stroke should be in an "open class"
I wish the AMA could also require that all MX bikes sold for competition meet the emission requirements for riding (green sticker, here in California) so that the bikes can be purchased and ridden for fun and not just racing!
Why not just reduce the sound levels on the 450's? It would slow them a bit and help save our sport !
To answer your answere question "Will this require a massive investment by manufacturers who currently produce 450cc bikes?" YES!!! The millions (make that tens of millions) of dollars/yen needed to develope a new engine platform will result in the OEM's putting up a fight like no one has ever seen. Want proof, look at Yamaha's 85cc four stroke that has been waiting for production do to the AMA's indecisiveness to rule on displacement limits for 85cc four strokes. Honda took a gamble that local sactioning bodies would make a decision before the AMA.
There is a whole other cost to the OEM's incurr once the design of a new engine is finished and the test mules are put out to pasture. Tooling up for production. Just to name a few of the costs; die cast tooling for case halves, cylinders and cylinder head, mill fixtures to hold the die castings and other external components during machining, CMM fixtures to inspect the components after machining, machining and inspection fixtures for all internal components, heat treat development $$'s (this process development is one large DOE (Design Of Experiment)) and can take up too a year too complete. The pain staking time and detail it takes to develope Reliable and Capable MFG Processes is very, very expensive.
My comments are just that, my opinions. But my perspective comes from 12 years of working in the manufacturing sector of the power sports industry.
I believe that the AMA screwed up when they allowed 450 cc. Initially it was 400 cc. Only Yamaha stepped up to the plate and made one. Doug Henry managed to win a race riding one, proving it was possible to compete against the 250 2-strokes. The limit should have remained 400 cc. At the current state of development, 400 cc is more than adequate AND possibly the 250 2-strokes would still be competitive. The Lites class limit should be 225 cc for a 4 stroke, maybe 200. This would give the 125 cc 2-smokes a fighting chance. Allowing them to go to 144 or 153 cc is ridiculous!! It's always been the 125 cc class. If the 250 4-strokes are too powerful, then reduce them, just like the big bores!!
To force the manufacturers to junk their tremendous investments all at once would be unfair. If it happens at all, the manufacturers should be given a 2 or 3 yr lead time to develop them. It's been mentioned to have a open class again to continue using the 450's. But if they're too much to handle now, how would just having another class make them more rideable??? Duh!!
I beg to differ. I am a Intermediate Vet Enduro rider and consider myself a true amateur. Recently moved up from a KTM EXC 400 to a KTM EXC 450 R and definitely love the additonal power. In fact the power compared to the 400 gives me more freedom to overcome the occasional whoop and let's me ride more relaxed. I believe the manufacturers should put more engineers on taming the power so that it becomes easier to ride. Look at a Porsche, few people always use the maximum power, most love the smooth power delivery (among other things :-)
It's all pretty simple. 1- Noise is an issue with the MX1 division and the FIM believes the reduction in cc will help (not eliminate) the problem. And 2- With indoor events (Supercross) the FIM and AMA believe that the 450s are too powerful for the indoor tracks and are simply tearing up the track too fast when it comes time to run the Main Event.
I believe it will make it easier for the Lites class riders to make the transition to the "big" bikes when it time for the riders to move up in class.
The problem for amateurs with the current crop of 450 bikes these days is that the bikes don't handle worth a damn. The only thing worse than an overpowered bike is an overpowered bike that the rider has to fight all day because it won't handle.
I am just a weekend track warrior, but I ride a 2001 YZ426, one of the best handling bikes made, and all I have to do is point it the direction I want it to go and gas it. The suspension works so well that even with all that power all I have to do is hold on and enjoy the exhilirating ride
Look at all the reviews on the aluminum frame bikes these days, offset clamps,dampers, too soft sprkings, shock linkages, turning issues in the corners. The question is how many times will the buying public keep plunking down 7000 dollars for a bike only to find out it still doesn't handle right and hope that next year somebody will get the aluminum frame right??
Maybe one of the manufactures will finally concede that the aluminum experiment just doesn't work on moto bikes and go back to steel.
I really would like to argue the 350 debate, my vote, it would be the perfect size. Only problem is what do you do with the 125/250? Class? But I that isn’t my direction, the “quieter part” pissed me off. There is only one organization that can affect QUIETER! The ama. Until they start a low db level mandate at all pro racing and enforcing it, nothing will be quiet.
My vote is keep the 450's. Bikes are only as fast as you turn the handle. 250f' are good for smaller guys and a 350 wont be much better. Just my 2 cents.
i ride a 450 and im 6'4,230lbs and can handle it just fine.dont put your 16 year old 140 pound kid on one and they wont get hurt.
Everything about the sport will be better. Massive investment; that's a joke.
Take a look at the factoy bikes in the lites class and the bucks they have in them. The average rider could never compete. the big bucks will buy all the H/P and before long they will have the power close to the 450s and less weight. Detune the big bikes with quieter exhaust. To many of these bikes never see a track. And that goes for the after market pipes too. We are losing too much ground because of all the loud atvs and bikes.
I've maintained for years that this would be the perfect size offroad bike. I currently ride a 250 2 stroke and a 250 four stroke. I've ridden 450's. Loved the wheelies, but it seemed like way too much bike for the tight trail riding I like to do.
The tractable power of the four stroke make it very easy to ride on goat trails but sometimes you want/need a little more grunt off the bottom end that you could get with the 350 engine With the 250 you find yourself wanting more at times. The 350 wouldn't require you to rev it out so high to get what you need out of it. The 2 stroke is a joy because of the lightness and instant pop you can access if you need to hop over a log or a rock, but it's trickier to control if you suddenly find yourself needing to climb. With a 350 four stroke you would have the grunt you need during those times and potentially you could have more of the light quickness that you get with a two stroke.
Finally, they see the wisdom of my ways! Bring it on!
350 will make our sport way more expensive! The smaller is CC the bigger is cost very loud and clear. I'm sure PC team cost more when 90% AMA 450 teams to run.
350 will make at the moment bullet proof 450 class place for cheating as MX2 is.
350 will raise cost for manufacturers again and again there from prices will rise more quickly again and again.
MX1 GP riders will ask same power as before so running GP team already Luongo bankrupted GP arena is double the development cost !
This no momentum bikes whot will generate massive tuned hp will tear tracks apart exactly the same.
It is behind the desk decision like banning 700cc in Dakar and force all the riders to weak falling apart 450's.
Riders weight and height will start to play again big role. Riders like Ken de Dyker have to leave the
sport as they don't have any change against RC, RV, Cairoli, Choppins size riders. Whot means if you are over 175cm and 70kg you don't have any change any more. Half of the EU new
generation riders are 190cm ... Smets never won his 5 titles under this
rule for example so whot is the plan I ask ?
350 are bit safer for a hobby riders who are stupid enough to buy 450, but we can't live under stupid peoples desires ?
Listen less Youthstream italians think more :)
450cc four-strokes never really made sense compared to a 250cc two-stroke. It seems this displacement limit was set (with the blessing of the manufacturers) to ensure that they would quickly replace the two-strokes at the highest levels of competition. The change was rapid, in only three or four years a two-stroke was a rare sight in the “250cc” class. The change was even more quickly accomplished in the 125cc class. Seemingly overnight the 250cc four-strokes dominated that series both indoors and outdoors (except for James Stewart). If there was any desire for two-strokes in the premier class, simply make their displacement limit 300cc, or 325cc. There would be some displacement where a two-stroke would be competitive. But this is not the case, no major manufacturer wants them.
It certainly appears that the manufacturers wish to build four-strokes rather than put bold new graphics and subtle changes to their lines of two-strokes. Two-strokes are as good as dead, and even four-strokes going to 350cc wouldn’t bring them back. Obviously the Big Five want to sell primarily four-strokes. They can suddenly render all their previous models obsolete by lowering the displacement limit, it is all the better for them.
The manufacturers and dealers also make money on spare parts. A piston rebuild of a two-stroke used to be a couple of hundred bucks, but to properly R&R a 450 motor will likely result in a four-figure repair bill at the dealer. Follow the money (revenue).
