Economical Commuter: What Should They Build?: MD Readers Respond, Part 2
Economical Commuter: What Should They Build?: MD Readers Respond, Part 2
Page 2 of 2
I really like the Ninja 250 for this idea. The only thing I would like to see is more options for springs to carry larger riders. I'm 275lbs with all my gear on. I have TL1000R for my own bike, but I've ridden a friend's Ninja 250 a number of times. Heck, that thing goes nearly 100mph with me on it. It's fun to ride around town and has enough punch to make passes. The only thing it needs for me to have a bit more fun would be suspension work.
So in short, they should make suspension kits for small bikes.
I do, I do! My daily ride is a 1978 Honda CB400 with Hondamatic.
I’d like a 400 with all the power you pay for in a 400cc motorcycle, instead of the 250cc levels of power we actually got. Why Honda reduced the power AND recommended up shifting at 12 mph, I don’t quite understand. I can’t believe Honda HAD to reduce the horse power on a 400 since they had the 750 already that made rather more. There was no need to lose about 1/3 of the horses in the 400T to convert it to the 400A. I believe THAT was the cause of the lower sales, rather than an automatic.
In a 400 CC, machine you need it to get off the line like a scalded cat, rather than an arthritic ape, so put it back in. In fact, make it a 500, Ok? I want a NEW CX500A version of the 1978 CB400A, shaft drive is a good choice for a commuter bike. Oh, and put a headlight on it that is worthy of the name, not that damned sealed beam with 35watts of “blinding” power, LED running lights, brake lights, turn signals, maybe even headlights if you can make it bright enough. But, in any case, I want a standard motorcycle, not a cruiser, or sport bike, or some strange variant super bike. Maybe Honda feels like labeling it as a commuter, rather than a standard, that’s fine, go ahead. And please, bring it to the US without a lot of crap on it that dilutes it so much that nobody can afford it or understand what its there for. Been disgusted with Honda for the last 30 years, so don’t screw this up.
Yes I would! And I have been for over 6 years now, on my Aprilia SR50, Gas mileage is great! I am getting 110 miles to the gallon. I ride it as much as I can here in Wisconsin. It is fast enough for town top speed is about 50-55, but will out accelerate most every one who doesn't care about getting beat by a scooter!
A subject dear to my heart...
I already commute by motorcycle, more precisely on a maxiscooter (Yamaha Majesty 400). Since I live in Wisconsin, where the last Ice Age has made a brief (we hope) comeback this winter, I don't do so all year round, but the maxiscooter design provides such effective weather protection for so much of me -- big windshield, good hand protection, legs and feet snuggled up behind the front shield -- that the riding season is limited only by ice on the road and really lethal cold. The Yamaha also has enough underseat storage space for both a flip-face helmet and a fully loaded backpack, plus miscellaneous stuff in other compartments: I can park it, shove the helmet and jacket under the seat, and leave everything securely locked for the day. The drive train is ultra-simple: a continuously variable transmission (CVT) with a belt, some pulleys, sliding weights, springs, and a centrifugal clutch -- genuinely twist and go. The bike has performance equivalent to a sporty small sedan, and will do 75-80 mph on the expressway for hours without complaint, and with no wind-blast problems (see above). The single-cylinder engine is fuel-injected, and has never failed to start and run smoothly (except when the battery went dead).
Its disadvantages have to do with the general unpopularity of this style of motorcycle in the United States: the nearest dealer is a 40-minute drive away, independent mechanics have never heard of it, almost any service requires fiddly removal and reinstallation of lots of body panels (which can then break), and I worry that Yamaha may give up entirely and "orphan" the thing. I have therefore thought about replacing it with a "real"motorcycle that would be more readily and less expensively serviced, and would (I confess) allow me in turn to consider myself a "real" motorcyclist. But reality keeps interfering: I have yet to identify any other two-wheeled vehicle that offers as much in terms of storage, intuitive operation (so I have more attention left over for safety), agility, economy (52 mpg on the highway), mechanical simplicity and reliability (so far), and general practicality. I had a brief fling with a Kawasaki Ninja 250 a while ago, and if Kawasaki updated the EX500 with fuel injection, a touring fairing, and generous provisions for storage, I'd be tempted. Ditto an reworked BMW airhead RT with less weight and a lower saddle. But they don't exist, so for the moment I will remain invisible to the "real" motorcyclists and stay warm, dry, and on time getting to and from the office.
You'll be needing two categories of commuter bikes: city/congested and suburban. Each will require a specific set of attributes that would not be as suitable for the other.
The city bike would be a standard, almost dual-sport configuration with an automatic/CVT/auto-clutch transmission. It should be taller to see around traffic and very nimble to handle the frequent lane changes and hazard avoidance maneuvers. It should also have longer travel suspension to handle pot-holes and debris, which one is bound to hit due to limited view of the road surface. Since speeds are relatively low, a torque laden single or twin of 350-500cc would probably be more than enough engine. Some form of bike and luggage security would also be an important feature.
The suburban bike would focus more on comfort and convenience. Good weather protection and cruising performance in the 40-70 MPH range would be paramount. There would need to be enough power and mass to handle highway stints but not be overly burdensome around the office campus. There are many existing bikes and large scooters that can handle this role very well. There isn't a tremendous selection but bikes like the Kawasaki Versys and Ninja 650, Suzuki V-Strom 650 and SV650 twins are typical. Luggage/storage would need to be a greater consideraton rather than aftermarket. A modern version of the Honda Silverwing or BMW R65 come to mind. There are also the large 400-650cc scooters that fit this niche and have all the storage you could need.
The problem is that commuters such as myself tend to be a very practical bunch. We're not out to buy the latest model every year or two. We find a bike that works and stick with it for many years. Though we ride through thick and thin and may be among the most loyal motorcyclists out there, we don't spend a lot of money. The sport bike and cruiser communities probably outspend us by a huge margin. Is it any wonder the manufactures cater to these markets and not the commuter? This may all change with $4-$5 / gallon gas prices but I wonder if even that will be enough to generate new commuter specific models.
For commuter purposes and high mpg in mind, how about a 500 – 800cc mildly-tuned naked bike with quick-detachable luggage available. Easy handling through commuter traffic and decent gas mileage and if it had fairly good suspension parts, it would be good in the twisties, also.
First of all, I would need normal sized tires and wheels. Not scooter sized.
Secondly, I want an upright riding position, like the R12R is , for example. Not feet forward , not hunched over like a sport bike either.
Thirdly, the engine needs to be torquey. Minimum 80 hp. So I can get out of the way of 90 mph Semi's and 100 mph Escalades trying to run me over.
Fourth, I think if we are making this type of bike at 50 mpg now ( like a Ducati or Harley does, ) why can't this get tweaked to 80 mpg with best engine electronics? Variable cylinder activations, sophisticated ignition advancements etc. I think if it was supercharged it could be like a 650 twin, like the SV650, but with some more room from a larger chassis.
I guess this sounds like the Fischer bike, but not that Sports bike configuration.
Absolutely not an automatic, as I have the FJR with that and I found out that I have spent most of my life learning how to use a clutch and gearbox and not only am I a lot better than the automatic, I actually like the control that the tradition system allows.
Another way is to make an EcoMobile type vehicle that would be more frugal. The problem with that though is seeing well in daily traffic. You need to see over and through traffic in order to stay safe and ahead of what is coming up.
Economical Commuter: What Should They Build? They built it : SV 650S. But I'm biased.
Q: What should they build?
A: An updated and revised Honda PC800.
I already own an excellent commuter bike, a 1998 Honda Pacific Coast.
It's no state-of-the-art sportbike, but it goes, stops, and handles well enough for this old man and his wife. The luggage capacity (especially with an added Givi top case) gives us lots of room to pack for weekend trips, and its wraparound panels, self-adjusting valves, and good reliability means that I don't need to spend much time cleaning or maintaining the machine. If Honda still made them, I would happily buy an 2009. PC, possibly with a bigger gas tank, a somewhat bigger engine, and a few other improvements. Lots of fellow PC owners feel the same way.
But the Pacific Coast failed miserably for Honda, so only a few of us found our way to it. With few exceptions, the industry, at least as it's represented by current US models, seems to be satisfied to deliver either supersports machines with performance useful only by expert riders on racetracks, or blinged-out cruisers that are more about form than function. These are wonderful machines, but they make little sense for someone whose primary needs are to get from here to there regularly and reliably with a maximum of stuff (groceries, laptop computers, or whatever else) and a minimum of fuss. Present- day scooters, including the larger-capacity models, address these needs, but they don't seem to be that common in the traffic stream.
And of course weather is an issue in much of the United States. Hard- core riders will happily bundle up and ride through snow, sleet, or whatever is out there, but if Mrs. Suburban Soccer Mom needs to get milk at the market on her way to pick up her daughter at piano practice, the chances are good she won't choose her scooter if it's rainy or cold out.
As much as I love two-wheeled vehicles, I'm pretty sure that a small, safe car, with a good pricetag, adequate performance, and room for people and things, will continue to be the answer for most commuting needs. Bikes, at least in most of the US, will remain toys for most of us, rolled out at appropriate times but shoved aside when life intrudes.
I would like to see an Fuel-Cell powered motorcycle similar to the ST1300, FJR1300, or Kaw Connie. You have plenty of wind protection for riding in cool weather, and luggage options for storing the groceries. They also look sporty and are comfy for the trip to work.
For me, the ideal commuter bike would be lightweight, medium-sized, and have enough lockable storage space to be able to stop by the grocery store after work to pick up a few small things, while providing secure storage for my briefcase while I'm in the store. Heated grips for winter riding and a windscreen to keep the rain and cold at bay would be good, short-ish seat height as well. (Have you seen how tall the seat is on a KLR650? Holy cow!) It should have enough power to play on the freeway.
Aside from those things, it should be able to be treated just like a car - left outside in rain, snow, heat, whatever, and start every time you hit the button. And like cars, it should require no regular maintenance outside of the standard consumables and regular oil changes. In other words, it should be an appliance, just a lot more fun than a Camry.
Perhaps we should be asking what type of motorcycle addresses all of our current concerns, including high fuel economy, low emissions, and even one that due to simplicity of design, requires relatively fewer components and raw materials to manufacture. To me, the ideal choice would be a well designed, reasonably high performance (especially due to lower weight) super motard style single cylinder motorcycle. If the KLR 650 is a bit too adventure oriented, and the Suzuki 400SM a bit too focused as well, then perhaps something like a marriage of these two to result in the perfect street single with all the capability that one could ask for in a two wheeled commuter vehicle for the enthusiast.
Response to article: For me, I would never drive a motorcycle with an automatic transmission. And scooters are strictly out of the question! I would however drive a Kawasaki 250R or 650R with some sport touring tires mounted for tread life.... I've also considered the Buell blast as a commuter since it gets 70MPG and has a nice riding feel. Ideally I'd love to see Kawasaki make a 250R styled bike with a 400cc engine for at or less than 4K that would get near 70MPG...
What I would like to see as the future of transportation, including motorcycles, cars and everything in between, is the development of more Range Extended Electric Vehicles. These are vehicles that use stored electric power that can be taken right off your home gird for short duration travel. To solve the problem of eventual loss of power on those longer trips they have small combustion engines, but unlike hybrids these engines don’t create mechanical power to drive the wheels, but use their mechanical power to turn a generator and create more electric energy for use by the motors to turn the wheel(s), which is much more efficient. So Imagine any type of motorcycle you like that you can simply plug into your house at night and have enough juice to drive to work and back on one charge. And for those skeptics out there it costs pennies to charge modern batteries. Then when you need to go on that long tour through the back country you have a small tank of gas that is used to fuel your gas-sipping one-cylinder engine that generates enough power that one tank of gas can take you 250 miles or more! This solves so many problems. Cheaper transportation, reduced emissions, and reduces our dependence on foreign oil as well. And the greatest thing about it is that we can do it! We already have the technology!
First of all, the ultra commuter should more resemble a motorcyle than a scooter to get most motorcyclist to even give it a look on showroom floors.
It will need a place for a tank bag.
The ideal ecco commuter should have built in luggage similar to a scooter, but think more like a Honda Pacifica.
As for a transmission, manual should be standard (why take all the fun out of it) with an automatic as an option.
It must have good torque if it's going to spend alot of time in traffic, so I think a 600-700cc V-twin would be ideal.
Final drive should be shaft or belt for low maintanence.
Sixteen inch wheels with ABS for quick steering and worry free stopping.
It should also come with great headlamps (preferably HID's) and excellent auxiliary lighting like super bright LEDs that are easily seen by surrounding vehicles.
The aero package should put the mirrors where they double as hand deflectors, ala BMW R1200RT. An adjustable windshield would be great, even if it's manually operated.
Heated seat and grips should be an option and an AM/FM radio could come standard with an optional mp3 player plug in.
The price must be less than $8500 to be a truly viable option.
I just had a new chain and sprockets put on my YZF600, and an oil change...$430 here in San Francisco.
It's not just fuel costs that keep motorcycling from being a clear and obvious choice for saving money when choosing a daily commute ride, it's routine maintenance costs. Since it's not likely shops are going to lower their $85-$115hr labor rates in this area any time soon, a truly economical bike would need to have a shaft drive, hydraulic values, and be able to get between 50-60mpg when ridden "normally". That should not be difficult for manufacturers to achieve. In fact, some have bikes that are already close. Now also make seat heights and controls adjustable, wind protection good, and provide easy access to doing oil changes at home, and I'd say you'd be there. The problem: Motorcycles are not marketed here in the US as practical, commute vehicles. Until riders here are as concerned about saving money as they are about going fast, looking cool, and making lot's of noise, you're not going to see as many fun and practicle bikes being produced.
I finally got my first street bike. It’s a UJM. Kawa ZR-7S. Used of course. I am using it several days a week to commute to work. It’s also fun to ride and the ergos are not so extreme as the supersport bikes. Like all “do most things” bikes, it’s a compromise. Not the fastest, quickest, sportiest, or best tourer. But not at the bottom in most catagories either.
Trying to pigeon hole all bike riders into a one size fits all is not going to work well as we all tend to be quite individualistic. Hence all the different “niche” segments to the motorcycle market.
I work in a large plant, so at any one time, there are probably 200 bikes parked at the facility. I thought I would see large numbers of niche specific bikes, for example, a disproportionate number of supersport bikes, or Harleys, or KLR650s, or………. You get the idea. Surprisingly, not so. There seems to be about an even distribution of just about all the genre’s represented. Nakeds, dual sports, sport tourers, cruisers, ujms, sport, supersport, scooters, and full dress touring bikes. I was surprised on the scooter part.
So to answer your question, I don’t think there is an optimum commuter bike setup. Or doesn’t seem to be. Everyone seems to pick a bike they like, and meets their desires, or of a type/model that they can afford, and then commutes on it, rather than picking a bike with commuting to work as the intent of the optimization effort. I suspect the reason for this is the lack of funds for most folks to buy one of every type of bike that is optimized for a particular task that they might or will put their bike too. It would be nice to have a dirt bike for off road, full dress tourer for the long trips, supersport model for track day, etc. but for most folks, it simply a matter of only having the funds to buy one, and so they get what they are interested in, and press it into service in all areas of two wheeling endeavors rather than just the area that the bike was optimized for.
I think if a manufacturer builds a bike focused tightly on just commuting only, they’ll be dissappointed in the sales results. Perhaps it’ll do ok there with you in So. Cal. as you have a very high population density and fairly moderate weather all year. And maybe that market alone is large enough to justify a focused model. The Honda Pacific Coast (if I recall correctly) was such a bike, I think. It didn’t make it in the market. Yet the VFR has been a model stalwart over the years. So evidently just commuting is not what is high on the list of “what do I want to do with this bike” activities when folks go and buy a bike. Their other interests come first, and commuting is just a necessary evil that the bike gets put to.
In my opinion, the current range of motorcycles and scooters currently available in the U.S. already provides an excellent selection of machines for those searching for a dedicated commuter. Mid-sized scoots like the Suzuki Burgman 400 probably come the closest to hitting the sweet spot: more user friendly than 650cc scooters, more freeway capable than 50-250cc scooters, plus weather protection, lockable storage, power outlet for heated gear, etc, etc.
If you have specialized needs, there are almost unlimited options... Cut and thrust, big city traffic? Get a small scooter or Ninja 250. Need to tackle bad pavement and dirt roads? Get a dual sport or adventure tourer (I'm currently lusting over the F800GS). Prefer performance? Get a 600-1000cc supersport. You get the idea. Any of these choices can be fitted and farkled with commuting/touring capabilities to rival those of scooters.
What the U.S. really needs much more than additional motorcycle models (not that I would mind, the more the merrier) is additional legal and infrastructure support for two-wheeled commuters. Make lane-splitting legal throughout the U.S. (or at least in metro areas) and provide more dedicated motorcycle/scooter parking (preferably covered) in urban areas.
Well there are plenty of good bikes already that fit this category, the missing link is factory luggage. My 2001 FZ1 with added luggage rack and hard trunk is a great commuter, and gets 42-45 in town. Something like an SV650, Vstrom 650, Kawasaki Verys (or what ever they call it), the FZ6, the Hornet 600 (if sold in the US) all fit that perfectly, but the factories need to offer hard bags as a low cost option. The aftermarket rack and bags on my FZ are great, but not everyone is going to search out a rack from 1 company, trunk from another and then put it all together. I think another category missing is a street single, the KLR650 is a great bike but is too high for many riders, and if you never take it off road you don't need the clearance.
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