A few weeks ago, we asked our readers what they thought about the continuing domination of MotoGP podiums by Honda and Yamaha. We wondered if these companies had a nearly unbeatable advantage due to their superior resources? Here is what our readers had to say:
- Although I see Kawasaki and Suzuki competing at a higher level as things move forward, as along as Honda and Yamaha have the top riders locked up, I dont see things changing. Yamaha has a development advantage with Rossi and Edwards, and Honda has the resources to build and test all manner of potential improvements and see which ones stick.
I keep hoping that Hopkins will rise to the podium level, and Nakano will probably get there some time this year, but as for a full season spread, I dont see it happenning this year. Hopefully that is not the case, because I would hate to lose those manufacturers.
Ducati will eventually be competitive, but I think they’re riding a dead horse if they stay with the steel trellis frame. KR/KTM is the wild card. An American rider on that bike competing for the top spot would be my ultimate wish (next of course, to the Motocyzsz project) - I do agree with you, the bigger pockets are going to win. Not just because
of the machinery, but just as important, they can afford the better rider.
I guarantee Rossi,who is arguably one of the best riders in the world,
didn’t go to Yamaha without knowing the machine will be somewhat completive.
So, I think it is a double edge sword, bigger money means better machines
and better riders, a tough combination indeed. - We all know that Honda is the big money manufacturer, but to say Yamaha has more resources than Kawasaki or Suzuki is not right is it?
Honda is huge because of its auto market as well as its motorcycle sales, but Suzuki sells a fair amount of autos as well. So Suzuki can’t be too “Poor” can they?
And as for Kawasaki, if Tommy Haden can make the ZX10R Fly, a full on GP bike from Kawasaki can’t be too big of a slouch.
I hate to say it, because I am a Yamaha guy, but the Honda is quite possibly the best racing motorcycle ever made. But you put Rossi on a bike that is “almost” as good, be it Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha or KTM and the performance gap gets A LOT smaller. - Of course it’s inevitable! he who has the most money, goes fastest. What’s wrong with that? Do we want to see Moto GP turn into another NASCAR series? What is needed is rules stability, so that the less funded teams can catch up. Whenever the rules change, the wealthier teams benefit because of their R&D dollars.
There’s room for everybody in racing, whether they are NASCAR, INDYCAR, AMA SBK etc. GP racing. both car and bikes has always been about money. - This is in response to the April 26 article concerning MotoGP. I agree
fully with the statements made about the bigger manufacturers having the
advantage with their deep pockets. The rider is very important, but he
still needs to be on a competitive bike. My point is why do all the
manufacturers think they need to be in MotoGP and not the production
based racing like AMA and World Superbike. It is obvious that
manufacturers like Kawasaki, Ducati, Aprilia, and even Suzuki have spent
tons of money in MotoGP to gain very little in the bottom line which is
to sell motorcycles. If Suzuki was not winning the AMA title every year
with Mladin, I bet they would pull out just like everyone else has
except Honda. Just look at Yamaha and Kawasaki. They have finally
gotton back into FIM but they were out for several years. I know that
data gained from racing MotoGP can be very important to building a good
production street bike, but does it give that much more vital data than
say good old production based racing like AMA or World Superbike would
give? I don’t think so. I have been around motorcycles all my life and
enjoy all types of 2 wheel racing. It just looks like some of these
manufacturers would wake up and realize what would be best for their
company. Being on the podium in AMA and World Superbike for pennies, or
coming in last in MotoGP for a small fortune. What do you think? - MotoGP is now just a battle between the Honda and Yamaha. If Rossi wasn’t
riding Yamaha, they wouldn’t even be in the mix. It’s not as fun to watch
when you know the same 2 or three guys will be at the front every time. I
wish Kawasaki, Ducati, Suzuki and Proton could get it together to make it
exciting. It’s all a matter of money, which Honda has a lot of. Yamaha has
arguably the most talented rider. Everyone else is just trying to catch up.
Personally, I enjoy watching AMA Supersport and Superstock. You have two or
three manufacturers that have a shot at winning every race. It’s more
exciting to watch. - Huh? It was more competitive with two-strokes, you say? Let’s see. Mick
Doohan won 5 consecutive championships for Honda, from 1994-1998. Then Alex
Criville won 1 in 1999. Kenny Roberts Jr. briefly interrupted the Honda
parade in 2000 by winning the championship for Suzuki over a fast closing
Valentino Rossi. It’s a good thing it was Rossi’s first year on a 500
because if it had been his second year or later he would have won in 2000,
but that’s OK, he won it easily in 2001. I believe that makes 7 of the last
8 years of the two-stroke formula won by Honda. It wasn’t more competitive
then, it just seems like it. - First and foremost it’s important to recognize the advantage of building your own machine, chassis and motor. That takes Ducati and Proton/Team KR out of the discussion. Suzuki has the shallowest pockets of the remaining competitors. Isn’t it odd that they can build the world-beating GSXR 1000 K5, and have had a dominant superbike platform for the last few years but they can’t squeeze the ponies out of their Gp bike. It just goes to show that production technology is vastly different than prototype technology. Suzuki also sourced their electronics, costing them a season in gremlins (not that the other manufactures don’t source their electronics as well, it’s just a question of from whom and how much testing has been done with those electronics etc.). Kawasaki has the next shallowest pockets of the crew and they were out of Gp racing for 20 years. It’s tough to jump right back in and try to hang. A few years of development are necessary just to get up to the level of competitive, and they are just peeking in on that territory now after three years back in the big show. So I guess to address your issue, Honda and Yamaha have the deepest pockets, yes, but they also have a philosophy of doing things themselves so that they understand the relationship between all parts of the machine. They may improve the total package by addressing specific concerns and having some concept of the outcome, unlike Suzuki, Ducati, Team KR and to a certain extent, Kawasaki who must just test, test and test again. The trial and error method is very slow, but less expensive than doing it yourself.
- Although no one can argue with the results that Honda and Yamaha have produced, there are a few trends I have seen generally in motorcycle racing.
Suzuki has always moved in cycles. I think they are on the upswing right now with their Supercross/Motocross, Superbike and World Superbike success. I look for them to continue being successful and being very competitive in MotoGP over the next three years.
Kawasaki never takes defeat well. Their latest liter bike is a good example. I know they have the drive, and I am confident that they have the means. I suspect that they have a good chance of introducing a very fast bike within two or three years.
Ducati is a big question mark and always has been. They have the potential to fade away from MotoGP or hit the big time with their new V4. They always have good talent, but frankly, I think their MotoGP days are numbered. My basis for this thought is that losing Superbike races to Suzuki will lose new bike sales. Less sales equal less development Euros. In my opinion, Ducati will dump MotoGP and regroup at the WSB level. - Yes it seems to be the same battle as last year.
Rossi proved during the 2004 season that on a lesser developed machine he still can win.
I believe that with his talent he could make Ducati or Kawasaki for sure winners in Moto GP. - I am not worried that the smaller factories are not on the podium….. Honda and Yamaha deserve the podium, it was after all their investment in time $$ and effort that got them there, the whole root for the little guy syndrome so many Americans have is a bunch of bull….. the strong survive and the weak don’t…. too bad Suzuki and Kawasaki; you had every opportunity to compete in the market place and on the track…. but you’ve lost. that’s life…there is a difference between a whiner and a winner, always has been.
- I wouldn’t stress over it too much, even tho it is looking a lot like the Formula One has done for the past 5 years or so.
Ferrari got there first with their cash pool, but the other teams are looking like they have closed the gap a lot.
I feel the same with the Moto GP. Honda got there first, but the rest are coming along. Obviously Yamaha next and then Ducati.
It’s funny to see Suzuki struggle so much, and yet they produce the world’s greatest road bike to date with the K5 GSXR1000. (I own one :P)
Chuck Rossi on a WCM and he will put it up front as well, there is no stopping the guy! - Hmmmm well if you ask me, and you did! I’d say its not Honda v Yamaha, its more Rossi v those other really good dudes who happen to be on Hondas. I reckon the riders have a heck of a lot to do with winning, i agree the companies money has a lot to do with it but its spent buying the best riders to ride for them not techy guff on the bike although that does help, however i do agree we did see some bloody good action in 500cc GP racing, but how much of that technology can be passed on to your very own production superbike; that sits in the garage till Sunday only to be awoken and have its neck wrung for a few hours before it gets cleaned and put back to bed!
Actually a road going 500cc two stroke production superbike in the garage would be a very cool prospect! - I don´t think so. MotoGP bikes are expensive like all motor sports. Ever being and ever will be expensive. Yamaha is a good bike but not that good, Valentino is making the difference! Only Rossi is winning in Yamaha. None of the other pilots is getting good results.
Kawasaki made big steps in their MotoGP bike. Nakano is flying, and they only need more horsepower and a linear devivery of power for get better results. Till the end of the year we are going to see the green ones on the front!!!!!
Last year honda had tire problems, causing chattering on the bike, making the motorcycle difficult to get good corner speeds. Alex Barros and michelin development a front tire for his bike, and he will be able to get more good results, like he did in Estoril, POLE POSITION, FAST LAP AND WINNING!! And the pass he did against Biaggi was very cool!!!!!!! Humiliated!!!!!
We are going to ses Rossi, Alex Barros, Gibernau and maybe, only maybe Biaggi on the front. Hayden is dead, the kid id fast, but inconstant.He will need more hours on the bike, a good professor to teach him how to use brain, instead arms!!!!!!
A good pilot surelly is Hopkins!!!!! God he is fast!!!!! Suzuki is a slow bike but this kid is “turning a acid lemon in a tasty lemonate”!!!!!! He will be not in the form, but he is going to have a good future on motoGP!!!!!!
So:
YAMAHA: Good motorcycle, Best pilot (Rossi) 10
HONDA: Best bike, good pilots (Alex, Gibernau) 10
Ducati: Good bike, good pilots (Capirossi) 7
Kawasaki: Good bike, good pilots (Nakano) 6
Suzuki: Slow bike, Good pilot (Hopkins) 4
And the rest………. - Most likely, but I don’t think it’s as simple as a
two-stroke/four-stroke issue. Sure the two-strokes are simpler but much
work had to be done to make them tractable. The technologies used in
today’s four-strokes is not a mystery at all. It will simply take time
(and money) before the rest find their way and become competitive.
Remember too, the rider makes a huge difference also. Some very good
riders are showing good numbers in practice but fail to make the podium. - It is not only the money and ressources to do the developpement…it is also
the money to pay the riders…However, this road race class is really great
to see. - It would be fun to see BMW or even TOYOTA build a motor for MotoGP.
- The top riders can make a significant difference for a manufacturer, so the will seek the best talent available which makes it much tougher for other brands. The top riders want to win, gain fame and fortune, and likewise want to be on the best or fastest machines. So, they go hand in hand. There have certainly seen some improvements from Suzuki, and now with the introduction of Ducati into the mix, we would have expected a more even mix. We Suzuki dominating at the AMA races, and Ducati dominating at the WSB races, our hopes were raised that the competition this year would be more balanced. The huge investments made by Honda and Yamaha definitely give them an edge. Honda has an incredible number of teams and riders in the competition, which can only lead to more improvements in a shorter amount of time. It seems though that now you cannot through much more horsepower at it, the bikes have to be refined in suspension and handling and other factors. So its off to the races for Honda and Yamaha for some time.
- I think that Money has a very large part to play in
MotoGP.
The factories with the deepest pockets, namely Honda and Yamaha, can afford
the $ 20+ Million a year development budgets, and then on top of that, pay $
10+ million a year in rider salaries. Namely Rossi. I doubt that the rest of
the GP field equals his salary combined.
Yes, I think that the MotoGP bikes are more interesting from a technical
standpoint, but I think that they have lost the sharp edge of the 2 stroke
bikes. I think it would have been pretty amazing to see MotoGP drop the
minimum weight limits on 2 strokes down to the 275 lb. area to allow them to
run with the 4 stroke crowd. I think then you would have seen Proton etc.
being competitive with the 4 stroke bikes.
Also, in reference to the Proton and WCM/Blata efforts, you cannot buy top
level technology off the street. John barnard that was hired out of F1 for
Proton came from a BACKMARKER team, and the results at KR/Proton reflected
that. All the winning teams, AKA Ferrari have their team engineers under
contracts that would rival Rossi’s contract, to prevent the backmarker teams
from buying the engineering talent.
Do I see a change in MotoGP? No, not really. Do I like it? Yes.
Do I like AMA superbike? I watch it, but it has turned into a contest for
first looser. IT has turned into the Mladin Suzuki cup. Same with World
Superbike.
I thought that the Formula Extreme would be an exiting class, but it has
turned into the Honda cup.
The Supersport class(s) (is that 600c or 1000cc?) have been real snoozfests
as well. AMA has screwed the pooch on the 4 “main” classes. The Daytona 200
is a “support” race? I have hosted a Daytona 200 race party at a local club
for 9 years now. Last year we had 61 people.
This year, we had 11, including me, and 2 wives, 1 girlfriend, and 2 kids.
AMA racing sucks.
I wish they would televise some of the club races and FUSA. - I can’t believe that corporations like Kawasaki, Suzuki and Ducati are willing to throw millions of dollars into MotoGP without trying to be competitive. If they don’t crack the Honda/Yamaha nut this year, then maybe next. Surely they’re learning from their mistakes, aren’t they? At the very least we get to see the MotoCzysz (hope I spelled that right) bike next year. Will it be competitive? Probably not, but I hope so.
- I love to watch the MotoGP races, but can’t relate to the bikes. Since their no where near what I can buy to ride on the street I don’t care how equal the brands are. World Super bike racing is closer to my reality. Even though their trickier than street bikes, they at least look like something I could buy.
I’d like to see a race where the riders don’t get to pick the bike they ride. They have to pick the bike they ride from a lottery, and they don’t get to set it up before the race. Keep all the different brands and their mechanic’s, just know one knows what their going to ride. I think you’d see some different faces on the podium more often then. - Hey guys (and gals ?)
Just want to say thanks for the great web site, I read it everyday, it a
drug, just like my 2000 zx-9r.
Keep up the good work and for today’s question: hasn’t Honda and Yahama been
dominating since..well, forever? Seems we’re back in the days of Roberts vs
Spencer. Except for Roberts jr who won in 2000 on Suzuki as well as Schwantz
in 1993, it’s always been Yamaha and Honda, whether we’re talking 2 or four
stroke. Schwantz would never have won if Rayney would have been there
anyways…sorry Kevin, you were fun to watch! - If you take the comparison of Formula 1 GP cars, you will definitely see a distinct advantage for the Mfr. that has the higher budget, i.e Ferrari. Not to say that Michael Schumacher is not a contributing factor (only one of the winningest Formula 1 racers of all time), but that the Mfr. definietly has the edge in spending.
As far as MotoGP is concerned, we would like to see that pure innovation could possibly win out over large development budgets, but that seems not to be the case when someone like Honda can try out several different engine/chassis configs per track environment. The others just can’t keep pace (no pun intended).
Would a cap on spending help? Maybe, but that is hard to track, and with the large manufacturers having already spent big bucks on state of the art design facilities, the others would be more constrained. It still might be worth a try. - The solution: 1,000cc 2 strokes. Faster, Quicker, Lighter than the 4strokes.
And cheap enough so everyone can get in the game – just bring extra tire
money - Honda is the worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer and have had a
good and long Formula One record. Formula One tech filters directly
into their MotoGP bikes, which is what gives them their biggest
advantage.
Yamaha Motor Corp doesn’t seem to be any bigger than Suzuki, and
except for Rossi, the Yamahas are no better than the rest. Put Rossi
on any of the other (save for the Aprilia or whatever it is now) and
he would make the bike competetive.
Kawasaki heavy industries, parent to the Kawasaki Motorcycle is one of
the largest corps in Japan. They have the money. It’s just not getting
to the bikes.
Suzuki and Yamaha, one has Rossi, the other doesn’t. That ‘s the difference.
Ducati is in the most financially disadvantaged place. A MUCH smaller
company than its Japanese rivals. But they do get help from Ferrari
and its Formula One program. Given their financial resources they are
doing great. Biggest problem they have is NO ROSSI!
Make no mistake about it, Rossi IS the ONLY reason Yamaha is having
any success. If not for him it would be all Hondas all the time. - Prior to the Yamaha-Rossi steamroller, it was pretty much Honda with the others (exceptions being Kawasaki and KR’s Proton) still grabbing race wins on occasion.
For this reason, I do not think that it is so much the bikes. Yamaha may be tossing money at their program, but until Rossi came along, they were pretty much equal with everyone else.
Once some of the other riders out there get really tired of losing, I would expect to see more bikes in the mix. –look back to KR Jr, a few years back on a bike considered to be below par. Eventually, someone else will start clicking with their mount and step it up. Right now, I do not believe that to be the case. - I feel that your comment about the four strokes giving an advantage to Yamaha and Honda based on their resources is unfounded.
Other than Kenny Roberts Junior in I believe it was the 2000 or 2001 season winning a title on the Suzuki tell me when somebody other than Honda won the title since 1992? Once Wayne Rainey had his accident on the Yamaha, Honda was the dominant motorcycle in the 500cc two stroke class. Kawasaki and Ducati weren’t even racing. I would admit that Kenny Roberts the senior had gotten the Proton to being a competitive bike, but they still weren’t a serious threat to win a title.
If you are basing your theory on the fact that Yamaha and Honda have been dominating the races since the beginning of the four stroke era I think it is flawed. Since the beginning of the 90’s it has either been Yamaha or Honda, other than the lone title with Suzuki, it hasn’t mattered if it was a 2 cycle engine or a 4 cycle engine. So I would like to know how far back you are going to determine that the 4 cycle engines have given an advantage to Honda and Yamaha? - ” the four-stroke prototypes raced in MotoGP clearly give an advantage to
the larger, wealthier factories ”
Rubbish.
Where were you in ’04? Did you not watch Rossi show the world that winning
a championship has more to do with the rider, and less to do with the
bike…much to the displeasure of Honda, who took way too much credit for
championships of ’01, ’02 & ’03?
Lawson did it, too.
Fact is, team Rossi and Burgess with any reasonably competent factory and
they would dominate. - I think that the horsepower quest has become ridiculous to the extent that only a few manufacturers can afford to participate and even fewer riders have the ability to race the ‘beasts’.
Many years ago, when the Manx Norton was king, racing was close, there were many local ‘specialists’ both tuners and riders, and it was affordable. I remember being at a meeting where the late Mike Hailwood was supposed to race his MV Augusta, but he arrived and the MV didn’t – so he borrowed a Manx for the event and still won – truly great rider.
It would be good to see the FIM introduce an engine formula of say no more than two cylinders of about 600cc, reduced fuel tank capacity, minimum weight and unrestricted chassis design - Well I hate to say it, but it comes down to one thing. Money! And
nobody even comes close to having as much as Honda. Think about it,
They not only have 7 top riders but are also simultaneously running F1
and Cart programs! To be honest. I think it’s amazing and great that
Yamaha is making them sweat so much, which would be impossible without
Rossi.
I would however prefer to see all the manufactures slugging it out.
Perhaps the FIM ought to try regulating the amount of bikes 1 factory
could run (either factory or satellite teems).
I think it will be bad for the sport and motorcycling in general if
Honda resumes it’s domination of Moto GP and they need badly to be
humbled some more! - I tend to agree with your analysis of MotoGP this year, but i cannot fully
agree. To see championship level riders like Bayliss and Edwards struggle
to bring top level equipment to the front of the pack, and to also watch top
level youngsters like Hayden, Melandri, and Hopkins also struggle. Then you
have riders who have world championship talent on top machines not be able
to get up there either like Biaggi, Capirossi, and Roberts. You have got to
still give credit where credit is due; to the very very top levels of skill
being displayed by Rossi and Gibernau. Yes, its easy to see which factories
are a step behind in the R&D department vs. Honda and Yamaha, but in my
humble opinion, if you stuck all of the riders on the exact same bikes, you
would still see Rossi and Gibs beating them by a pretty good margin.
I, as many do, sight the Suzuka race of a few years ago where Rossi and
Edwards rode the same bike as an indication of Rossi’s ‘genius’ on any
motorcycle. Edwards, who had been riding the RC51 for that entire season
comes in with the bike set up to his liking, turns it over to Rossi who
procedes to beat Edwards best time within the next 5 laps. Also, if you
read into any of the interviews of Edwards during testing, and some other
riders over the past couple of years, both off of MotoGP.com and Faster-The
Movie, they all are very aware that Rossi is simply better than anyone else
out there, and only racer ego keeps some of them from flat out saying it in
public. Gib’s is the only one who is consistently close, and after 3 years
on the same bike he should be, but for Rossi to beat him last season the way
he did even he has to have that idea in the back of his mind…and Gib’s, at
this moment, is just as unbeatable.
With GP History to look at, it is sort of similar to Randy Mamola’s many
2nd’s to so many world champions during his career. Had he not come along
at the time he did, Mamola would certainly have at least one championship to
his name. With Gib’s, you can basically say the same thing, if it were not
for Rossi. - Actually, no one except Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki have won the premier class championship in the modern era…so duh, yes.
- That tiny factory in Bologna was able to put a shout
across Honda’s bow not to long ago. There is no
reason to believe, that Kawasaki and Suzuki couldn’t
do the same thing. Currently, both of the previously
mentioned Japanese factories seemed to have no problem
beating Honda and Yamaha for the best literbike on
showroom floors. If they can do it with a production
bike, they can do it for a prototype. They didn’t get
it right the first time around with the new 4 stroke
rules, but remember that the reduction in displacement
is right around the corner. This means new engines,
new chassis, and all new bikes yet again. Let’s hope
one of them gets it right for competition’s sake. But
until a certain Doctor decides to go to 4 wheel
racing, I don’t think it will make that much of a difference…. - Suzuki and Kawasaki should be able to compete, for that matter Ducati as well. They have plenty of $. I think it is more rider than you think, just look at Hayden’s performance thus far….
- A more interesting question is what are Honda’s intentions with the rumored
production V5? It wouldn’t seem to make a lot of sense for them to develop
a production V5 merely to replace the XX. So if the production V5 is real,
you have to ask if they have something else up their corporate sleeve. I
don’t follow racing, so for all I know, there could be some rule in
superstock and superbike that would prohibit a V5. But if not, then why
does everyone take it for granted that the production V5 would be a
replacement for the XX and not for the CBR1000RR?. That would make a heck
of a lot more business sense, and if the inherent advantages of a V5 are
substantial enough to have the effect of dominating the other liter-class
production sport bikes, this would make perfect sense, and it would explain
why Honda has been so mum and why the project has been delayed so long. If
they did this and it was successful, we’d have a revolution on our hands. - Well after today’s race in Shanghai with Olivier Jacques’ amazing race with
Kawasaki,It seems like Kawasaki might be included in the Honda-Yamaha
domination at MotoGP. - Althoug in first two races nothing but hondas and yamahas showed at the
podium, i think that both kawasaki and ducati are in a path of
development of their bikes that will pay success in the short term.
Ducatis: We can’t forget all the wins Ducati have in their bag, its
matter of time, luck and work to bring the GP5 to succeed, the bike
seems to be pretty powerfull and with a rider-frindly engine, so we can
think that troubles comes from the chassis, a point that ducati have
enough expertise to fix. Maybe they need at this time a rider young and
hungry for victory, both Checa and Capirossi are over the 30s, with too
many crashes and hurts in their bodys and minds, and i think they are
“cruising” untill retirement. Another point: Carlo Pernat is undoubtely
a racing man, and his present in the team is a big asset.
Kawas: They are improving step by step, one race at a time. They hired
Shinya Nakano, a talented race and test driver, a man with the pace, the
determination and the balls big enough for the task. The big bang engine
is a big step forward, the bridgestone tyres seems to the an advantage
in this stage, and (after May 1, Shangai and the rain…..) Olivier
Jaques must stay in the team, he will worth it, he is a rider that
Yamaha fired in a very, very wrong decision. The combination
Eckl/Fanalli is a wining one, and time will show it.
Suzuki: For sure the big deception of the class, the suffer of lack of
consistency, despite they good combination of a young talented driver
and a experimented one. They are weak in so many areas, engine,
handling, pace, hard braking……even Erv Kanemoto couldnt improve the
work of the team. Maybe is a matter of money, or, I think, a lack of
involvement of the factory in their racing team. In any case, Suzukis
are so far than we expected, and their spots of good lap times are more
because of bridgestone than Suzuki.
