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Ducati Reveals Impressive Panigale 1199 Superquadro Engine (Updated with Video)

If you thought Ducati could not improve their production superbike motor, you were dead wrong! The following press release details the new 195 hp, 98 lb-ft Superquadro 1199 engine for their new superbike. In addition to the press release and video below, you can visit Ducati’s Superquadro website here.

With just a matter of weeks to go until the final unveiling of Ducati’s brand new 1199 Panigale at the EICMA International Motorcycle Show in Milan (10-13 November), the Italian manufacturer now reveals the secrets behind the awesome power of its 2012 Superbike.

The most extreme benchmark ever
Ducati’s latest engine, the Superquadro, goes beyond the barriers of engineering to enable the introduction of a futuristic Superbike today. Its no-compromise approach to design, combined with Ducati’s Italian innovation has now set the most extreme benchmark ever and stands as the latest milestone in Ducati’s long and iconic history of Superbike engines.

Ducati engineers were given a near impossible design brief to create the new generation Superbike engine for the Ducati 1199 Panigale. Increase power, torque and userfriendliness and reduce overall vehicle weight and scheduled maintenance costs seemed impossible tasks, but given a “blank canvas” to create the new power-plant and encouraged to think outside-of-the-box to achieve the unachievable, engineers have finally ticked all the boxes.

The innovative Superquadro engine, so called because of its massively over-square bore and stroke ratio, has increased power to an absolute production twin-cylinder milestone of 195hp and torque to 98.1 lb-ft (13.5kgm) with user-friendly Riding Modes that deliver that power appropriate to the rider’s style and environment. Its construction has enabled a radical reduction in overall vehicle weight and, further identifying Ducati’s constant pursuit of performance perfection, major services have been extended to 24,000km (15,000 miles).

Only Fabio Taglioni’s masterpiece 90° L-twin configuration and Desmodromic valve control have been retained from previous engines. Everything else is new.

Engine architecture
With the engine designed to be a fully stressed member of the chassis, its architecture has been completely re-calculated to provide the best possible vehicle construction for layout, weight distribution and strength. The cylinders, which remain at 90° to each other, have been rotated backwards around the crankcases by a further 6°, until the front cylinder is 21° from horizontal. This has enabled the engine to be positioned 32mm further forwards for improved front / rear weight distribution in addition to perfectly positioning the cylinder head attachment points for the 1199 Panigale’s monocoque frame.

The crankcases, which are vacuum die-cast using Vacural® technology to ensure optimal weight saving, consistent wall thickness and increased strength, also incorporate in their form the outer water-jacket of the “cylinder”, eliminating the jointing face that used to exist at the base of the cylinders. Instead, the Superquadro has separate nikasil-coated aluminium “wet-liners” inserted into the tops of the crankcase apertures. This design enables secure fixing of the cylinder head directly to the crankcase, improved sealing and enhanced heat dissipation from the thin cylinder-liners directly into the surrounding coolant.

The primary-drive casing, clutch casing and outer cover, sump and cam covers are all cast in magnesium alloy, ensuring a lightweight engine despite its increased strength as an integral part of the chassis.

In addition to cylinder position, the crankcases now use shell main bearings for the crankshaft, previously only used by Ducati on the Desmosedici RR engine. Removing the roller bearings has enabled an increase in diameter of the crank journals for enhanced rigidity and an increase the crankcase section around the main bearing area for improved

strength in line with the Superquadro’s extreme power output. The shell bearings are forcefed oil from internal drillings within the main bearing pillars to keep the new crankshaft well lubricated and is quickly scavenged back into the sump with the introduction of a new Ducati feature, a highly efficient MotoGP-style vacuum pump.

The pump is driven by the main oil pump shaft and effectively maintains constant vacuum in the crankcase area below the pistons, reducing atmospheric resistance during the downstroke of the piston and controlling the internal “breathing” of the engine.

Extreme dimensions
In calculating the optimum configuration to achieve the next big step forward in power output for the L-twin engine, Ducati and Ducati Corse engineers increased engine speed and enhanced breathability with the incredible bore and stroke of 112mm x 60.8mm. The intense study of power and ridability resulted in an output of 195hp @ 10,750rpm and 98.1 lb-ft (13.5kgm) @ 9,000rpm. The new bore and stroke ratio of 1.84:1 effectively increases rpm with the ultra-short stroke of the crankshaft and increases the cylinder area to enable increased valves diameters. Inlet valves have increased from 43.5 to 46.8mm and exhaust valves from 34.5 to 38.2mm.

With such large inlet valves operating at higher rpm, the intense inertial forces have been controlled by using titanium instead of steel, a solution only previously used on full “R” models. The new valves are actuated by racing-derived rocker arms, ‘super-finished’ for reduced friction and fatigue and then coated in polymeric-like carbon (PLC), a process originally developed for the aerospace industry.

The race-derived Superquadro pistons have a distinctive double-ribbed undercrown to achieve high strength and reduced friction by using minimal piston wall surface area. Using technology developed by Ducati Corse, the design enables reliable operation of the 112mm diameter pistons when performing at high rpm.

The improved volumetric efficiency of the increased inlet valve diameters is further capitalised on by increasing the oval throttle body dimensions from an equivalent diameter of 63.9 to a massive and high-flowing 67.5mm. The Ride-by-Wire throttle bodies feed air across twin injectors per cylinder, one positioned below the butterfly for enhanced flexibility and one above for outright power.

Clean power
With such enhanced “breathing”, the challenge for the Superquadro’s Design Engineers was to program performance-optimised fuel mapping for a smoother cycle-to-cycle engine operation, without compromising emissions. To achieve this, Ducati introduced a secondary air system that completes the oxidization of unburned hydrocarbons and effectively reduces HC and CO levels. The system is activated when the engine ECU recognises specific conditions in the engine’s operation via the lambda and throttle opening sensors. It then opens a valve enabling a flow of clean air from the main airbox to a reed valve situated in each cylinder head, which enables one-way flow into an air gallery exiting into the exhaust port close to the exhaust valve. Entering the hottest point of the exhaust gasses, the fresh charge of air enhances the burn environment, eliminating any unburned fuel that escapes during the exhaust cycle under certain conditions.

Desmo dependent
With such an extreme engine, never before has Ducati’s unique Desmodromic system been so vitally important. With the high engine speeds at which the Superquadro operates combined with such large valves, it would be impossible for the valve’s rocker-arm to follow the steep closure profile of the cam lobe using normal valve closure springs. The Desmo system actuates valve closure mechanically with the same method and accuracy as it opens, enabling steep cam profiles, radical cam timings, large valves and high operating speeds. This system is used on every single Ducati motorcycle and is constantly proven on Ducati Corse’s World Superbikes and Desmosedici MotoGP bikes.

The power of precision
Controlling such large valves with the precise Desmodromic system also led engineers to replace the original belt-drive concept, used since the introduction of the Ducati Pantah in 1979, with a combined chain and gear-drive arrangement. The conventional bush-type chain runs from the crankshaft to the cylinder head where a single sprocket positioned between inlet and exhaust camshafts, is attached back-to-back to a gear wheel mounted on its own short, dedicated shaft. The attached gear meshes directly with gears on the ends of both the inlet and exhaust camshafts, which are also designed with +/- position adjustment for ultra-precise cam-calibration. The cam chain, therefore, provides highly efficient point-topoint drive route and, tensioned automatically, provides continuous reliability and further reducing the cost of routine maintenance.

On the end of each exhaust cam drive gear is a centrifugal flyweight which retracts at speeds below tick-over to rotate a “protrusion” from the concentric section of the cam, thus creating sufficient inlet valve lift to act as a de-compressor. This ingenious device enables the Superquadro engine to be started easily without using a larger battery and starter motor, which has reduced overall vehicle weight by approximately 3.3kg (7.3lb). When the engine starts and the camshafts begin to rotate at tick-over speed, the centrifugal flyweight flicks out, retracting the “protrusion” back into the cam and allowing complete valve closure for full compression. This innovative feature further underlines the lengths to which designers and engineers have worked together in the single-minded pursuit of weight-saving.

New transmission
Ducati’s engineers also capitalised on the opportunity of the “blank canvas” project to increase dimension between the centres of the six-speed gearbox shafts, enabling larger diameter, stronger gears to transmit the enhanced power output. New for a top-of-therange Ducati Superbike is a “wet”, oil-bath clutch. Based very closely on the design of the Multistrada and Diavel components, the clutch assembly features a “slipper” function and a progressive self-servo mechanism that compresses the friction plates when under drive from the engine. While enhancing frictional efficiency, this also results in a rider-friendly light clutch lever “feel” at the handlebar. Conversely, when the drive force is reversed (over-run), the mechanism reduces pressure on the friction plates, enabling a true racing “slipper” action, reducing the destabilizing effect of the rear-end under aggressive downshifting and provide a much smoother feeling when closing the throttle or down-shifting under normal riding conditions.

Performance perfection
Competition is the platform on which Ducati has always challenged and measured itself. It is a discipline for designers and engineers and the bedrock of motivation for a company in which the constant desire for victory has become a way of life. The Superquadro is the most powerful twin-cylinder production engine on the planet and is destined to power the new Ducati 1199 Panigale with absolute performance perfection.


  1. Bad GSXR says:

    Talk to freindly DUC Dealers:
    Pricing I heard is roughly…
    1199 standard 20,999.00
    ABS add 1,000.00
    Tri-Color 27,999.00

    EVO Special Ed to follow later
    Corse or R ver to follow later for select customers/Racers.

  2. Clyde says:

    It will be at least 3 grand more than any asian and as of yet an unknown in styling. I would like to own Ducati if it were not such an expensive and maintenance intensive machine. They have been and always will be an exclusive item not available to the most riders. Just like the RSV4 concept, extremely cool topic of many discussions power-wise, engineering, etc but not anything truly “new”, just progression to try to keep-up in the “horse-power” war. And not to be accused of not keeping-up with new design, a matter of pride for the Italians.

    • Rick Rocket says:

      I’m not sure what your looking for in “truely new”? What has been turely new since Otto’s engine. All of the development of the internal combustion engine is “progression”. The progression you see today centers around improvments in power-to-weight ratio, volumetric efficiency, and friction horsepower. Each company (Asains included) revising their engine layout (Inline-4, L-Twin) in search of incremental improvement. The Japanese call this Kizan.

  3. motobell says:

    Looking at the photos again, this could be THE BEST WATERCOOLED NAKED ENGINE Ducati has made! Looks boring compared to the testastretta ( ) but could be clean with less hoses and belt covers in a streetfighter

  4. brinskee says:

    Give it a year or two, you’ll probably get it. Ducati will see how this engine holds up and if it’s reliable, they’ll shove it in the Streetfighter and Multistrada. Especially the Multi – they’ve been very popular for Ducati.

    • Norm G. says:

      re: “Ducati will see how this engine holds up and if it’s reliable”

      oh it’s reliable. remember, this bike was originally set to release as an ’11 model, but was held back. from my understanding it already had something like 50,000 kilometers on it in testing circa october of ’09. fast forward 2 years to the present and that’s enough time to easily log an ADDITIONAL 50,000 in test miles. dotting i’s and crossing t’s in excess of the 100k mark i’d like to think is what we saw “bob’s big boy” doing.

  5. Patrick D says:

    If Honda don’t make inroads with their fireblade, perhaps the gloves’ll come off a-la RC51, and we’ll get a 1200cc Honda V twin. It gave us some some of the best WSB races and seasons when Honda and Ducati were on a level playing field.

    • brinskee says:

      Suzuki tried this too – remember the TL1000R? It was a beast (at the time, putting out 135 HP and 78.3 ft-lbs) but way too heavy to be competitive. I was a fan of both the RVT RC51 and the TL. I would love japan to fight the v-twin wars again too – I’m a huge fan of twins. I just think the liter/HP issue is the reason – an inline four or even v-four configuration simply gives you more bang per liter. I doubt it will happen again, sadly. To be honest, I thought Ducati would take a page from Aprilia’s book and it’s next superbike would be a V-four. I’ve heard rumors that KTM is developing down that (or the p-twin) path. Interesting times ahead, as always. 🙂

      • Norm G. says:

        re: “To be honest, I thought Ducati would take a page from Aprilia’s book and it’s next superbike would be a V-four.”

        patience. that is coming. however, in the short term they can’t go “blowing their load” on V4’s (especially not on consumer whims) when there’s still plenty of business to be transacted in V2’s. as you can see, they’ve managed to hold off a whole DECADE before being forced to introduce this architecture. they could’ve built something very close to this in ’01. one could argue even the Super-Q is premature given last week’s DOUBLE crowns…!? clearly nothing’s in need of “fixing” in the world of belts, trellis, and stroker cranks. 🙂 rest assured the japanese and the germans are plotting dissension and protest as we speak. part of me is even starting to agree with them.

        • brinskee says:

          Very interesting. I suppose you’re right – why change something that is working so well. You’ll notice Ducati is going to continue to race the 1198R in SBK next year, so even they think they can get more mileage out of that engine/frame/bike. Wonder why they’re releasing so soon anyway! I guess the wheels are in motion so they had to – marketing, production, etc. I know without a doubt there will be some conversations from the other Germany and Japan. Otherwise 2012 will be just like 2003 and another “Ducati Cup” series…

    • MikeD says:

      Long live “EL 90*VeeTwin”(Specially the 1200cc DOHC Monsters of late[KTM,DUCATI&BUELL)…hehehe.

      Brinskee…i heard that too about KTM. And tought about the same(V4) with Ducati, after all…Aprilia sure has made it work for them, the Desmocedici, the Honda V-5, V-4, etc.
      When it comes down to building HP is kinda hard to argue with I-4, V-4 architectures.

      Good times indeed to be an enthusiast of the genre.

  6. harry says:

    I’ll take mine in a multistrada configuration please.

  7. Andrew says:

    Norm G. says:
    October 10, 2011 at 7:01 am
    behold, the worlds greatest RVT (racing vee twin) engine…! the Honda RC-5… err, i mean the Ducati 1199. stamp those side covers with the letters H-R-C and you got yourself a dead ringer.

    When did HRC ever use Desmodromic valve operation? The only similarity to the Honda is that it has 2 cylinders

    • Norm G. says:

      re: “When did HRC ever use Desmodromic valve operation? The only similarity to the Honda is that it has 2 cylinders”

      all stated tongue in cheek. everybody knows desmo is a ducati staple. but without superman’s x-ray vision, this can’t be seen from the outside by the lay person. at first glance, the appearance is uncanny (i invite you to google RC51 engine). but if you like i can itemize the HRC influences…?

  8. MikeD says:

    I found it COOL to look at if not fascinating. I would use this as a center piece on the coffee table of any livingroom…in true gear head fashion. LOL.

  9. motobell says:

    what? no carbon belt covers and billet dry clutch covers anymore? Is that a Aprilia engine? sad but I understand “viva la progress” ana all … can’t wait to see it – styling (and pricing) will decide popularity than performance on any duc

    i am sure there will be superquadrata streetfighter in the future.. c’mon just make a new ST4S – i will even take the previous gen engine 1198 engine in it..

  10. Denny says:

    If this is what ‘western culture’, as far as motorcycles are concerned can produce, it is (perhaps along with BMW achievements) in full vindication in face of Japanese competition. Scales are in balance. Magnifico, Ducati!

    • Solomoto says:

      I’ve not sure what you mean by “in full vindication in face of Japanese competition” Do you mean the Japanese are vindicated by the fact that BMW copied the Big 4 supersports design and now Ducati the same with respect to the Honda RC51 engine?

      • Fred M. says:

        @solomoto: Perhaps you should bone up on your motorcycle engineering history in order to avoid wince-inducing posts like the one I’m replying to.

        The RC-51 was the result of Honda copying Ducati’s 90 degree twin layout — because Ducati was cleaning Honda’s clock in Superbike racing in the 1990s. The 90 degree V-twin engine layout was in use by Ducati since 1971. Three decades later, Honda released their 90 degree V-twin RC-51. A decade after that, Ducati released this 1199 and now you claim that Ducati copied Honda? Wow. We’re supposed to ignore the fact that Honda didn’t have a Desmodromic valve train, that the production RC51 only made 133hp/liter while this Ducati makes 162hp/liter, and that the RC51, despite producing only 2/3 of the horsepower of this 1199, weighed about 100 pounds more. I guess you also don’t want to talk about the Ducati having a slipper clutch and making all that power while meeting emissions regulations that the RC51 could not have hoped to meet.

        As to BMW’s S1000RR, how is it a copy of the “Big 4 supersports design” (you probably meant Superbike)? Did you decide that it was just by counting cylinders? Did you know that the BMW boasts the largest bore of any inline 4 liter bike while having the lightest engine weight of 131.8lbs? Ever consider that BMW produced a road-going bike with a traction control package that shamed the Japanese? Did you know that the S1000rr cuts fuel and ignition to ease the engagement of the gears when the rider’s boot moves the shift lever a few millimetres as part of an upshift? What you also either didn’t know, or didn’t consider, was that the S1000RR was a new market and competition class for BMW. They chose the engine layout because they needed to make a lot of horsepower on bike that had a low (for BMW) selling price.

        If you’re going to criticize companies for copying and lacking innovation, then go after the Japanese, where Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki all produce I4 Supersport 600cc bikes with identical bores and strokes (67mm x 42.5mm). The bikes are practically clones of each other.

        • nome says:

          The S1000RR also has modern finger-follower valve-train that no Japanese superbike has AFAIK. Step up your game, Japan!

          • Denny says:

            Hey Nome, this is partly true and BMW is using it with favour on twin as well. But you cannot say it is their invention, just because jap companies for some reason do not use it on their liter bikes. This concept has been used times before, including japanese makers. So it is nothing new under sun. The tappet can be arranged in different ways with different objective behind it.

          • Norm G. says:

            re: “The S1000RR also has modern finger-follower valve-train that no Japanese superbike has AFAIK.”

            specifically spherical shims. well, 1/2 sphere.

          • MikeD says:

            @Nome: Finger Follower modern tech ?…nah, maybe to u.

            A quick exmaple…Kawasaki ZRX1200…and the thing is not even a High Strung Superbike but rather a Pedestrian Standard.

            A Japanese SuperBike example ? How about the first Gixxer ?! 1986 GSXR-750.

      • Denny says:

        What I mean Solomoto is the fact that West was lagging long after Japanese onslaught and now seem to have risen and presents what it can do. It is not so much about “who copied who” or “who was the first”. Not at all: everyone is imfluenced by competition and this is normal and fair game. (At the same time Fred is right that West had multicylinder engines first.)

        Japanese had for at least 30years a lead and THANKS to THEM we, ordinaries were able to ride good quality and inexpensive product. They did something tremendeous for ALL of humanity. But, like it or not, western ego suffered. Now we can see that in the West there is innovation and there is seemingly boundless ability. Again, I’d wish it to be for benefit of all.

  11. Norm G. says:

    updating articles with video is A-W-E-S-O-M-E…!

  12. brinskee says:

    I hope they don’t price this out of reach… And maybe just maybe they don’t make it the size of a 600… Please, Bologna, please!

  13. Gutterslob says:

    Impressive on an engineering level?….. Probably.
    Still buck fugly in an unfaired bike (like all Ducati watercooled nakeds)…. Most Definitely.

    God this captchas are annoying!!

    • Norm G. says:

      i doubt this engine is destined for naked use. not for anything regarding engine aesthetics but because of the dual sub-frame design. but then again, there are those who find the “grand prix” look pleasing so i’m sure ducati could prolly “stylize” those pieces as well. (if they aren’t already?)

    • hoyt says:

      The only thing unattractive on this engine is the black box bolted to the right side. Is that a coolant/oil heat exchanger? (perhaps this can be mounted in front below the starter?)

      Gone are the belt covers which were very cool if one purchased the clear aftermarket bits from Rizoma. I’d rather have the chain and gear driven cams anyway.

    • Fred M. says:

      If you care about that kind of thing and want a 1200cc V-twin motor, go buy a Harley Sportster.

      Criticizing sport bikes based on engine styling is like complaining about the lack of cup holders in a Ferrari.

  14. Norm G. says:

    behold, the worlds greatest RVT (racing vee twin) engine…! the Honda RC-5… err, i mean the Ducati 1199. 🙂 stamp those side covers with the letters H-R-C and you got yourself a dead ringer. LOL which is cool since i’d like to think this is what the RC/SP would’ve evolved to if BIG RED didn’t look down their noses at the configuration.

    • Looks awesome. Can’t wait to hear if some of the nice clutch sounds are replaced by an even nicer gear whine from the cams.

    • Delta says:

      Yeah, and IF frogs had wings, they wouldn’t bump their asses when they hopped. How can you say that is what the Honda V-twin would have evolved into!? Must be all the desmodromics that Honda is using, huh? BTW, Honda makes a LOT of V twins to this day. They might be mostly cruisers, but I don’t think they “look down their noses” at the design.

      • MikeD says:

        Delta says:
        BTW, Honda makes a LOT of V twins to this day. They might be mostly cruisers, but I don’t think they “look down their noses” at the design.

        That depend on the color of the lens thru where u look at things.
        I personally see it the same way as Norm G. , they let it ROT and DIE even tho they had a good mill on their hands…there was plenty of life and uses for it on many other platforms besides a superbike (same with the TL1000S/R Mills)…all that R&D gone to waste.

        The twins on their cruisers are nothing to be proud about. They are as bland and low tech as marshmellows. They are Anvil reliable, i’ll give them that much.

        The M109R Mill next to the VTX1800F Mill looks like the SuperQuadro compared to a 5HP Air Cooled Brigss&Stratton.

        Opinions MAN…they all stink. LOL.

      • Norm G. says:

        re: “They might be mostly cruisers, but I don’t think they “look down their noses” at the design.”

        the modern brass don’t. for business reasons they can’t. but in soichiro’s day, for racing, they did. honda ie. “the engine company” has always been about MULTI’s and about GRAND PRIX. you needn’t look any further than the history behind the release of CB750 in ’69, the collection hall @ motegi, or take a read of the founder’s bio to see this.

        it was common knowledge at the time, the SP-1’s/2’s were built (begrudgingly) for no other reason than to make a point of the 250cc break afforded twins. from the company that had already created and raced a high revving 250cc 6 cylinder, a 2 cylinder was a “been there done that” proposition as far as they were concerned. notice, the program came and went inside of 4 years…? if you blinked you would’ve missed it. and many of you DID miss it.

        and as if to stamp an exclaimation on my point, what did the mighty tactical arm that is HRC bring the world IMMEDIATELY after this…? that’s right, the “shock and awe” campaign grand prix history now records as the V5…!!! still considered the greatest racing motorcycle ever built. and built by HONDA they would have you know, NOT rossi.

    • MikeD says:


    • Fred M. says:

      Then Honda must truly suck at engine design because their “dead ringer” 999cc RC51 is way heavier than this 20% larger displacement Ducati. And the Honda RC51 engine produces only 133hp/liter compared to the 162hp/liter that this Ducati produces.

      • MikeD says:

        Fred now u are just being brutal for no reason.

        Why compare an old[2002 SP2 saw last updated version]mill with this state of the art masterpiece ? Have u gone MAD ?

        • Norm G. says:

          re: “Have u gone MAD ?”

          i think he has, that was over a DECADE ago…!?!? we were still talking reagonomics, sporting big hair, and wearing fluorescent colors (which i hear from the kids, have come back in style btw). 🙂 LOL

        • Fred M. says:

          I’m not the one who made the comparison — I’m replying to Norm G. and others, who made the comparison based on nothing more than a passing similarity in outward appearance. Some even went so far as to imply that Ducati was copying the decade-old RC51 design for this engine.

          I know that a lot of Honda fans are disappointed that Honda dropped the RC51 from the line-up so soon, but Honda did. This isn’t some homage to the RC51. It’s not building on technological breakthroughs ushered in by the RC51. It’s the next in a four decade long tradition of 90 degree V-twins from Ducati and it needs to be judged on its performance and mechanical design, not that they chose the same color scheme as the RC51 engine.

          Really, look at these engines:


          Ducati 1199:

          Sorry, but I’m not seeing some close resemblance there, outside of colors.

          • MikeD says:

            Oh, c’mon…they both have those lovely gold magnesium covers ALL OVER and are 90*, 4 valve heads, high tech tuff looking beasts…what’s there not to look similar ? LOL.

          • Norm G. says:

            re: “Sorry, but I’m not seeing some close resemblance there, outside of colors.”

            no worries, this is simply a by-product of not having a strong familiarity with ducati twins prior to this press release.

          • Fred M. says:

            @Norm G: I don’t have to be familiar with prior Ducati twins to compare this one to a Honda engine. Either it looks just like the Honda or it doesn’t. It doesn’t.

            Nonetheless, I am very familiar with them and know far more about the history of Ducati and their engines than you do.

            They look similar to you because you aren’t an engineer. You lack an engineer’s ability to get past the color scheme and general shape and really understand what you’re looking at.

          • Norm G. says:

            re: “They look similar to you because you aren’t an engineer. You lack an engineer’s ability to get past the color scheme and general shape and really understand what you’re looking at.”

            bold statement(s). you sure about that…? 🙂

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